Sub 1:50 800m Training

In addition,

I'm a twig because of the abundance of ST fibers in my body (weigh only 120 pounds and stand 67 inches). Would it make sense to hypertrophy the FT fibers in my LOWER BODY ONLY to gain more strength/force production, thus more power, resulting in more basic speed. I'm not talking much, maybe I put on a couple extra pounds (2-4 pounds). OR should I just simply work with the FT fibers that I have (and not hypertrophy them)?

i seem to have lied to myself and am in the mood for typing moreso so:

1. what is the anaerobic zone for intensity

A. 85%+

2. if one begins running at 85% after how long does the first observable form of fatigue become apparent

A. 15 second or similar

3. what is this fatigue

A. depletion of PC

4. what distance should we run to ensure depletion occurs

A. 150m meters

4. after how long once this depletion occurs are we adequately recovered for another effort

A. 3 minutes

5. after how many repetitions is 3 minutes inadequate for reasonable recovery

A. 3-4, maybe 5 if already well trained

6. so how do we gain a greater training effect than that from 3-4 reps

A. multiple sets

7.what recovery is required before the second set so the two sets can each provide a balanced workload

A. double the recovery ie 6 minutes

7. so how would this session look to gain an adequate overall training effect?

A. 2 sets of 3-4 reps at 85% with 3 mins between sets and 6 minutes between reps

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8. once this system has been adequately training how long now if running at 85% does the next form of fatigue enter the system

A. 30-35 seconds

9. what is this fatigue

A. lactate system fatigue

10. so how long should a repetition be to adequately creat this fatigue

A. 300m

11. and how long do we need to recover so this system is replenished for another repetition

A. 3 minutes

12. and after how many reps does this system not adequately recover at 85%

A. 3-4

13. and how do we do gaina greater training effect than that provided by 3-4 repetitions

A.multiple sets

14. and how long between sets do we need so both sets can be of similar workload

A. double the recovery ie 6 minutes

15. so how does this session look

A. 2 sets of 3-4 repetitions at 85% off 3 mins between reps and 6 mins between sets

16. and what if indidividual factors mean these parameters of 85%, 3 mins, 150m and 300m do not work out

A. modify those paraments slightly ie 250m, 80%, 4 minutes

17. how long should these modifications be kept

A. as little time as possible with rushing to the standardised parameters

18. and how about hills

A. anytime you want to add a strength component into the equation add hills - preferably after the energy systems are already somewhat developed

19. what about 200m and 100m and 400m reps?

A. these will not allow for the other parameters of 85% and 3 minutes to be observed

20. do i know what i am saying?

A. reasonably so and any self experimentation with self observation can show you this too

ATX wrote:

In addition,

I'm a twig because of the abundance of ST fibers in my body (weigh only 120 pounds and stand 67 inches). Would it make sense to hypertrophy the FT fibers in my LOWER BODY ONLY to gain more strength/force production, thus more power, resulting in more basic speed. I'm not talking much, maybe I put on a couple extra pounds (2-4 pounds). OR should I just simply work with the FT fibers that I have (and not hypertrophy them)?

it is better to have a balanced development than not, balance is my number one principle of training - find balance and then keep balance

ps number 17 above should read 'without rushing'

That looks like a good progression.

As far as visualizing, I tell the athletes that I work with to really emphasize driving through the hips and to be light and reactive on their feet. I like to visualize being springy before start plyos, a positive state of mind can go a long way. Also, focus on the landing just as much as the take off, good posture, head up (not looking at the ground), tight angles.

flow wrote:

i seem to have lied to myself and am in the mood for typing moreso so:

1. what is the anaerobic zone for intensity

A. 85%+

Just to clarify, you mean 85% of top end sprint speed? And the math on that is to multiply by 1.15?

Pmoax19 wrote:

That looks like a good progression.

As far as visualizing, I tell the athletes that I work with to really emphasize driving through the hips and to be light and reactive on their feet. I like to visualize being springy before start plyos, a positive state of mind can go a long way. Also, focus on the landing just as much as the take off, good posture, head up (not looking at the ground), tight angles.

yes yes a negative state of mind is a heavy one, a positive one light.

Also of course there are finer technical points to emphasise in order to refine the movements and i have to totally agree that the hips are central to this, but prior to technical components, even though the hips are probably number 1 in technique there is a couple of other things i have found to be more important. They can be outlined in the mechanical approach i now prefer which contains in order of importance

MECHANICS

1. posture - upright being the main quality, in order to align with gravity

2. rhythm - how to best move this posture around

3. technique - the individual parts of the posture of which the hips are the central aspect.

-to adjust other parts of the body ie the limbs without first correcting the hip position has proven mostly futile to me

-also whilst i used to emphasise driving the hips through now i talk about driving them up and over - up against gravity initially, although the up and over do occur mostly together to create a through sensation, first gaining an upward momentum is necessary

- and the focus on landing is excellent,landing in correct posture and on correct timing or rhythm allows for continuous motion, necessary for multiple hurdle jumps or multiple hops and steps. Maintaining posture and rhyhthm continuously throughout an activity is a big benefit

thanks for the positive feedback

to be fair wrote:

flow wrote:

i seem to have lied to myself and am in the mood for typing moreso so:

1. what is the anaerobic zone for intensity

A. 85%+

Just to clarify, you mean 85% of top end sprint speed? And the math on that is to multiply by 1.15?

yes 85% of top end sprinting speed and that seems to be the math involved

so for a 12.0 100m runner this would equate roughly enough to 18.0 for 150m and mutliplied by 1.15 would give you 20.7 for reps

i would though begin before this (as a leadup) and do some sessions of 150s off a walkback which could be around 2 mins in say 22 seconds.

F off . all of you

What and when should I be doing for plyos? Does anyone have a plan/schedule?

If you want to improve 800m try the following basic regime during base phase

M - basic distance and 6*200 (slow-med-fast)x2

Tu - 5*800-1000 with 400m jog cutting down

W - basic distance and drills

Th - Steady 20-30 min tempo

F - basic distance and drills (mentioned before)

Sat - 10-20x a 20-25 second hill repeat with 2-3min rest

Sun 90-100minutes

12 weeks of this

OldSub4 wrote:

If you want to improve 800m try the following basic regime during base phase

M - basic distance and 6*200 (slow-med-fast)x2

Tu - 5*800-1000 with 400m jog cutting down

W - basic distance and drills

Th - Steady 20-30 min tempo

F - basic distance and drills (mentioned before)

Sat - 10-20x a 20-25 second hill repeat with 2-3min rest

Sun 90-100minutes

12 weeks of this

basically i like this although, as someone strongly influenced by Lydiard, there would be some small differences, but for someone like ATX it probably fits quite well. For a 400m runner moving up maybe not so (at least under my current thinking).

One thing though Old-Sub4 - i sincerely hope you are coaching people even though the lure of the money market keeps you busy, for your understanding, as i have seen it through this thread, would put most coaches in my own home country to shame.

OldSub4 wrote:

If you want to improve 800m try the following basic regime during base phase

M - basic distance and 6*200 (slow-med-fast)x2

Tu - 5*800-1000 with 400m jog cutting down

W - basic distance and drills

Th - Steady 20-30 min tempo

F - basic distance and drills (mentioned before)

Sat - 10-20x a 20-25 second hill repeat with 2-3min rest

Sun 90-100minutes

12 weeks of this

A couple questions...

Where do the weights fit into this? Just on basic distance days? In the morning as a session or after distance+drills?

Where do doubles fit into this? On workout days or non-workout days?

Is it ok to do tempos or other hard running more often like 3-4 times a week? An average week right now is

M-am1wu,6X(1/3easy,1/3 starting at 5kpace working down to mile pace) 1cd pm 5-6 easy

T-am 5-6 easy pm hills 1wu 5-6X800m moderate or 10-12X400m fast or 20-25X15seconds all out 1-2cd

W-am 7 tempo progression pm 5 easy+weights+abs

Th am 5 easy pm 1wu 10X(150m sprint,50m jog,100m drills/pylos, 100m jog,1-2 minute rest) 2cd

F am 5tempo pm 5-6 easy+abs

Sat am 1wu 10-12X(1/3 fast,1/3 moderate)1cd starting at tempo pace and working down to mile pace

Sun am 5 easy pm 5-6 easy+weights+abs

Every third week is an easier one of just 60-65 miles mostly easy, a couple tempos maybe. There isn't really much of a schedule. I try and go by feel most of the time, if my legs are mush then I will run easy, if they are ok then I will sometimes do 2 hard sessions that day. Is this too much though?

hi old sub 4,

would you be willing to discuss my training through email. I am not allowed to post it on this forum, but would like your thoughts?

my email is

jackmuir87@hotmail.co.uk

Why can't you post it?

just a few comments

try doing a similar type of hard session every 48 hours or 3 times a week. This follows the rule of recovery. If you really want to do a lot of this faster running then consider the fact that it cuts into your ability to optimally develop your aerobic capacity. We only have a limited amount of time and energy each week, may as well develop the base in the base training phase.

Why not do doubles 5-6 days a week. The double gives the chance for quicker recovery really and not much else. Do it in the recovery zone of 120-130bpm or wherever your breath starts to draw but not rise up out of your diaphragm into the chest.

BASE PREP SAMPLE

mon am: recovery 30min + drills/strides pm: easy 30min including hills + circuit training for 30min

tues am:rec 40min pm: aerobic capacity run 60min

wed am: rec 30min + drills pm: progressive 40min + circuits 30min

thurs am: rec 40min pm: aer cap 60min

fri am: rec 30min + drills/strides pm: easy 30min inc. hills + circuits 30min

sat am: optional recovery run pm: something faster but still steady and only later modulated ie fartlek or long intervals with jog recovery or timetrial

sun am: extra long run slower than aer cap but faster than easy pace for at least 90 min and later longer if you want to gain glycogen depletion benefits and extra capilliarisation benefits

even include a full rest day and in the third week cut out one of each type of session for your easier week.

two hard sessions in one day may prevent doing the next hard session 48 hours later.

if you want to do plyos then do them circuit style and mostly continuous for about 30 mins at a sub maximal level. PLenty of time for maximisation later on, get the skills and the general low level conditioning effects first. They can wait until the next phase of training ie after the 12 weeks old-sub4 suggested. Same with the weights - do circuits first covering all of the exercises you will do in weight training later.

bumpty bump bump

Breaking out the old training logs (very depressing) i have a week with actual times from November..

M 4am 8pm drills

Tu 5*mile with HARD 800 recovery. Miles 450,445,445,437,429 and half mile recoveries in 2:50-3min...7 miles total in 35:02.

W 8.5 easy

Thur am 4mile tempo 530,520,510,455 pm 8-6-4-3-2-1 in 158, 127, 57, 41, 26, 13

Fri 9 easy drills

Saturday 10 mile fartlek 3min on 2 min off for 50 minutes

Sunday 12

Total miles 82

caveat was that I was moving up to the 1500 but even the guys who stayed at 800 were running the same.

OldSub4,

Your Thursday PM session seems to be a mixture of your mile/1500m and 800m race paces, done cut-down style. I recall an earlier post of yours also on base phase where your Thurs PM session is 200-300m cut-down. I assume the paces are similar for these shorter reps too?

So am I right to say that its ok to include some reps at goal race pace for my main event even in the base period, as long as I allow ample recovery between the hard running segments, and keep the volume low? This looks like the phase 2 in Jack Daniel's Running Formula for 800m and 1500/3000m training.

I also recall reading a thread by Jeremy Huffman way back in 2006 where he posted his training after taking up the Pose Method of running.

Week of October 8th thru 14th)

Oct-8th-

A.M. Long Run- 10mi

Time: 62:13

HR: 151bpm average HR

Recovery HR: 42 seconds to reach 120bpm

Course: On road with Rolling hills

*After run Hip/core strengthening exercises

Oct-9th-

A.M. run 6mi

Time: 35:19-(5:55,5:56,5:48,5:45,5:57,5:55)

HR: 150bpm Average HR

Recovery HR: 42 seconds to reach 120bpm

P.M. weights

Squats: 3 x 8reps at 270lbs

Hamstring curls: 3 x 20reps at 35lbs(single leg)

Single leg Box step ups: 3 x 10reps at 90lbs

Jumps with weight: 3 x 30reps at 50lbs bar

Oct-10th-

A.M. Workout (3 x 200m)(3 x 400m)

Splits: (26.9,27.0,26.8) (56.3,57.6,57.6)

(Recovery HR: Reached 120bpm in less 90 seconds on every interval. Roughly took 3 minutes walk rest between each interval and 6 minutes between sets.)

*After workout: Jump Ropes: 10 x 50reps

Oct.-11th-

A.M. workout (5km)

Time: 16:15-(5:12,5:20,5:12,33)

HR: 167bpm Average HR

Recovery HR: 74 seconds to reach 120bpm

*After workout bounding jumps: 6 x 50 meters

Oct-12th-

A.M. workout (5 x 600m)

Splits: (1:35.8,1:36.2,1:34.9,1:35.9,1:34.7)

Rest between intervals was approximately 3 minutes walk rest.

Recovery HR: reached 120bpm in under 70 seconds following each inteval.

*After workout did upper body strength training

Oct-13th-

A.M. Run 10mi

Time: 60:01

HR: 153bpm Average HR

Recovery HR: 43 seconds to reach 120bpm

*After run Ab and back exercises

Oct-14th-

A.M. Workout (2 x 1500m)

Splits: (4:10,4:16)

Rest was 6 minutes between intervals

Recovery HR was reached in less than 90 seconds after each interval-(120bpm=recovery HR)

Week total Mileage: 51 miles

All in all this was a very good week. I did however have some difficulty reaching my workout goal time on the 14th. I was shooting for 4:03 pace for the 1500m intervals. Otherwise the week went according to plan. Enjoy your training!

Jeremy

While not getting into the whole Pose running issue(yet?), I just want to point out his Oct 10th workout of (3x200m)(3x400m), done essentially at his goal race paces for 800m (200m in 26-27 sec) & 1500/mile (400m in 56-57 sec), respectively. Since this is in October, I'm assuming that this is part of his base training. Also, he claimed to be training more for 800/1500m while still ensuring that he is fit enough to compete in races up to 10K. This was the case in 2006.

I think Vebjorn Rodal & Yuriy Borzakovskiy both do something similar.

While I do not believe every runner will need to do the same, this does seem to fly against conventional wisdom on base training.

I have always run a session at either 800m or 1500m race pace during the base on a weekly basis. I'm just curious how this will affect the rest of the traing? Is it essential for a middle distance specialist to include some running at goal race pace throughout the entire year, or is this actually harmful? After all, the abovementioned runners are not building up from slower paces (eg 6x200m in 36-32 sec, like you suggested to me earlier on, which I think is a good idea btw) that early in the pre-season, but already doing the reps AT target race pace for the coming competitions.

What's your former coach's rationale in including this type of Thurs PM session? What is your personal opinion of this type of session in the base period, be it those done by yourself, or by other elite level 800m runners?

foomiler wrote:

What's your former coach's rationale in including this type of Thurs PM session? What is your personal opinion of this type of session in the base period, be it those done by yourself, or by other elite level 800m runners?

I do think as a 800/1500 person you do need to have one session per week at speed throughout the year. We would start with the 2*3*200m in 36,34,32 in September, and get back into something nearer to goal pace by November. I think that it keeps that system alive and not atrophied but does not work it too much to get an enzymatic response from your anaerobic system (ie only once per week). Also, as long as there arent any true speed endurance sessions or 300s with short rest it doesnt take away from the base building. If you are a 1:45 800m guy you can run a couple 40-42 300s and they should feel smooth, not labored.

By January we might be still doing something like 5*800m on tuesdays cutting down to 2flat. Thursdays 4mile tempo and thursday pm 6-8 200s,300s, or 400s to get the turnover, then Saturdays something to mix like 800fast, 200jog, 300 quick, 300jog (the old oregon workout) where we are pressing down to goal mile/800 pace and trying to hold tempo.

Move out into the spring and you start getting the pure speed workouts, 3*600m, for the milers 4-8-4-2 or 12-8-4-2 etc to turn up. 800m men running the classic 8-6-5-4-3-2-1 really ripping the 4-3-2-1...I see a couple 53, 37, 24, 11 finishes to some of those workouts. THen your classic race pace 600, race pace 400, 5*200 type workouts to boost confidence and get the legs popping for lactic acid tolerance. Usually I need a race pretty quickly and would stay peaked for about 3 weeks off this, then I need two weeks to regroup and try to have another 2 week race period