This thread has descended to a tantrum by posters who cannot bear to hear that a great runner from the past is better than Jakob ever will be and that he will never be the GOAT, as much as he vainly asserts that he will be.
This thread has descended into a tantrum by a drunk 70 year old man who can't have a civilized conversation with people who disagree with him.
Paavo Nurmi is certainly one of the greats, but it's asinine to claim that someone who ran in the amateur era can be the greatest ever when the runners of today can beat his PB's while running in zone 3.
So, if the metric isn't medals (as Jakob implied) what is the metric that allows for fairly comparing across generations?
It can't be time. That would just mean that every world record holder is the GOAT, and would discount huge achievements from people as recently as the ten or twenty years prior.
If it is a combination of:
Olympic Medals Won
World Championship Medals Won
World Records
Breadth of distances in which there was legitimate achievement
Career Longevity...
then Nurmi is part of a conversation that you could argue Jakob isn't even included in, let alone rising to the top of.
+ 1
There has been numerous (too many) posts on this thread about what it means to be the Goat and what a runner has to achieve to dethrone the current Goat. I think the above mentioned combination is spot on.
It has also been discussed who the current Goat is and almost everyone (including myself) seems to agree that it is Bekele. Even Armstrong seems to agree even though he has tried to promote his foremost hero, Herb Elliott, as an unique1500m/ miler. (More about that later).
There has at least been 2 threads about the subject:
After going through the internet, I couldn’t find a really definitive ranking of the best distance runners ever. Most lists settled for only the top 10-20 runners, and the quality varied considerably. So I put some time...
John Wesley Harding09/26/2020 9:27pm EDT4 years ago
Hello friends. I have been noodling over life’s big questions, such as who are the top 100 men’s middle and long distance (800-marathon) runners of the last 75 years. Here’s what I’ve come up with so far.First, one honorabl...
" My goal was to be the best runner in history....” “(It would take) Five or six [Olympic] gold medals, to be better than all the different runners in all the disciplines. That would be the end of the discussion. And the goal is never to have the discussion again."
So he wanted to be the best runner in history ................ in all disciplines. He is possibly thinking about 800m to Marathon as in the 2 threads mentioned in my previous post. But he is certainly not only thinking about the 1500m/ mile.
He mention 5-6 Olympic golds but I don´t think he believes that is sufficient. I think we have to see it in connection what he otherwise has stated in the last year or two, including that he wants to break all WRs from the 1500m to the Marathon.
I also think it is understood that he must take at least as many WC golds.
If he can do this he is close to be the new Goat, especially if he also can do something in X country and on the roads. BUT IS IT REALISTIC?
Let´s take the WRs first:
More than 5 years ago I predicted that he would take all the WRs between 1500m and 10,000m and I have of course not changed my mind since he now has taken a few and is much closer to the rest of them. PROVIDED HE OVERCOMES HIS INJURY PROBLEMS SO HE CAN TRAIN AS USUAL.
The 1500m and the mile:
I predict that he will have both of them at latest at the end of the next year´s season.
He could in my opinion have taken the mile WR in Eugene if the conditions had been better (no jetlag, no wind, better pacing, evening race) OR in Brüssel if he had run the mile instead of the 2.000m. His 2000m WR equals a mile in around 3:42 (the WR is 3:43.13).
In the 1500m he needs to run around 0.3 seconds faster per lap and he can do that when he has improved his aerobic capacity a bit more. His training has given him steady aerobic improvements for 15 years and there is no reason to believe it will stop soon.
3000m:
Many here will possibly agree that he could have taken it last year if he had run it in Paris instead of the 2 miles. And it will be even easier as he developes further aerobically.
5000m and 10,000m:
I believe him when he states that he gets relatively better as the distance increases so he can also break these WRs if he continues his efficient, mainly aerobic training.
---------------
If he is close to the WRs in the 1500m and the 5000m it of course makes him the favorite for gold in these 2 distances in Paris which would mean he can get 5 Olympic golds if he can keep up the steam until the 2028 Los Angeles OG. And possible a number of WC golds too.
Bekele has 3 olympic golds and 5 WC golds but Jakob must have more to try to equal Bekele´s 12 X country WC golds.
It would also help if he could take some X country golds (on not too hilly courses) and some road golds ( he would have run in Riga last year if not getting married and do anybody (apart from a few American patriots) doubt that he could have taken the mile gold?)
I also think he will be a monster on the HM if he end up running this distance (probably not before OG Los Angeles). I think that his current TRESHOLD PACE indicates a HM in under the current WR and that is why he considers the HM to be his best distance.
Why? I'm getting exactly the response I expect from the likes of you.
Yeah. I know you expect to be called dumb and ignorant. That's what you have been called all your life.
That amuses me. It is the opposite of what I hear from those who know me. But it's what is offered by such as you here - which says everything about you and nothing about me.
This thread has descended to a tantrum by posters who cannot bear to hear that a great runner from the past is better than Jakob ever will be and that he will never be the GOAT, as much as he vainly asserts that he will be.
This thread has descended into a tantrum by a drunk 70 year old man who can't have a civilized conversation with people who disagree with him.
None of them are civilized. So that precludes that kind of conversation.
So, if the metric isn't medals (as Jakob implied) what is the metric that allows for fairly comparing across generations?
It can't be time. That would just mean that every world record holder is the GOAT, and would discount huge achievements from people as recently as the ten or twenty years prior.
If it is a combination of:
Olympic Medals Won
World Championship Medals Won
World Records
Breadth of distances in which there was legitimate achievement
Career Longevity...
then Nurmi is part of a conversation that you could argue Jakob isn't even included in, let alone rising to the top of.
+ 1
There has been numerous (too many) posts on this thread about what it means to be the Goat and what a runner has to achieve to dethrone the current Goat. I think the above mentioned combination is spot on.
It has also been discussed who the current Goat is and almost everyone (including myself) seems to agree that it is Bekele. Even Armstrong seems to agree even though he has tried to promote his foremost hero, Herb Elliott, as an unique1500m/ miler. (More about that later).
There has at least been 2 threads about the subject:
I think Jakob at the moment is far away from Bekele but opposite you I think he is in the conversation (has a realistic chance to dethrone Bekele).
More about that in my next post.
My point is that there cannot be a single GOAT, as every event has its own unique requirements. Bekele undoubtedly has a claim to being one of the greatest distance runners, but he cannot match the achievements of the greatest md runners - or sprinters - nor they him. They occupy different parts of the running spectrum. Each have to be judged according to different measures. My specific point about Elliott is that he was greater than Jakob at the same specialty distance of the 1500/mile. (I will add that Elliott isn't necessarily the greatest md runner of all time but he is in the ballpark.)
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
" My goal was to be the best runner in history....” “(It would take) Five or six [Olympic] gold medals, to be better than all the different runners in all the disciplines. That would be the end of the discussion. And the goal is never to have the discussion again."
So he wanted to be the best runner in history ................ in all disciplines. He is possibly thinking about 800m to Marathon as in the 2 threads mentioned in my previous post. But he is certainly not only thinking about the 1500m/ mile.
He mention 5-6 Olympic golds but I don´t think he believes that is sufficient. I think we have to see it in connection what he otherwise has stated in the last year or two, including that he wants to break all WRs from the 1500m to the Marathon.
I also think it is understood that he must take at least as many WC golds.
If he can do this he is close to be the new Goat, especially if he also can do something in X country and on the roads. BUT IS IT REALISTIC?
Let´s take the WRs first:
More than 5 years ago I predicted that he would take all the WRs between 1500m and 10,000m and I have of course not changed my mind since he now has taken a few and is much closer to the rest of them. PROVIDED HE OVERCOMES HIS INJURY PROBLEMS SO HE CAN TRAIN AS USUAL.
The 1500m and the mile:
I predict that he will have both of them at latest at the end of the next year´s season.
He could in my opinion have taken the mile WR in Eugene if the conditions had been better (no jetlag, no wind, better pacing, evening race) OR in Brüssel if he had run the mile instead of the 2.000m. His 2000m WR equals a mile in around 3:42 (the WR is 3:43.13).
In the 1500m he needs to run around 0.3 seconds faster per lap and he can do that when he has improved his aerobic capacity a bit more. His training has given him steady aerobic improvements for 15 years and there is no reason to believe it will stop soon.
3000m:
Many here will possibly agree that he could have taken it last year if he had run it in Paris instead of the 2 miles. And it will be even easier as he developes further aerobically.
5000m and 10,000m:
I believe him when he states that he gets relatively better as the distance increases so he can also break these WRs if he continues his efficient, mainly aerobic training.
---------------
If he is close to the WRs in the 1500m and the 5000m it of course makes him the favorite for gold in these 2 distances in Paris which would mean he can get 5 Olympic golds if he can keep up the steam until the 2028 Los Angeles OG. And possible a number of WC golds too.
Bekele has 3 olympic golds and 5 WC golds but Jakob must have more to try to equal Bekele´s 12 X country WC golds.
It would also help if he could take some X country golds (on not too hilly courses) and some road golds ( he would have run in Riga last year if not getting married and do anybody (apart from a few American patriots) doubt that he could have taken the mile gold?)
I also think he will be a monster on the HM if he end up running this distance (probably not before OG Los Angeles). I think that his current TRESHOLD PACE indicates a HM in under the current WR and that is why he considers the HM to be his best distance.
Everything you say about Jakob becoming the best in all running disciplines in years to come remains fantasy until it is accomplished. For now, it is largely his fantasy and those of running fans who simply do not recognise how difficult it is even for a very talented athlete to dominate one event let alone a range of them.
Jakob will be irrelevant in any event shorter than the 1500. At his age and with injuries the chances of gaining the world records in the 1500/mile are receding. He has been shown to be vulnerable in championship races at that distance. His best distances appear to be non-championship events from the 2k to 2miles. He has won a WC 5k title but there has been no indication that he could take the wr for that event and dominate it in Olympic and WC competition in years to come, as Bekele once did. There is nothing that puts him in contention with Bekele at any greater distance, such as the 10k.
If he is fit enough to compete at Paris - and doesn't have a "cold" - I would expect him to at least medal in one event, maybe two. But with the competition out there another gold is a longer shot. He's trying to talk himself into the history books. It won't happen.
My point is that there cannot be a single GOAT, as every event has its own unique requirements. Bekele undoubtedly has a claim to being one of the greatest distance runners, but he cannot match the achievements of the greatest md runners - or sprinters - nor they him. They occupy different parts of the running spectrum. Each have to be judged according to different measures. My specific point about Elliott is that he was greater than Jakob at the same specialty distance of the 1500/mile. (I will add that Elliott isn't necessarily the greatest md runner of all time but he is in the ballpark.)
I agree in everything you are saying here… And you didn’t even have to mention Bolt specifically -of course one cannot place him lower than Bekele. Neither him above Bekele - we need to acknowledge (as you say) two perspectives at the same time then it comes to Goat discussions!
This thread has essentially been ruined by a lunatic who is completely obsessed with Herb Elliott.
It would be very difficult to rank Elliott as even one of the top 30 or so 1500m/mile runners of all time. He isn't comparable to someone like Jim Ryun in terms of pure talent and being undefeated over a couple of years with a much narrower and shallower talent pool isn't something we can relate to the world of miling in 2024.
" My goal was to be the best runner in history....” “(It would take) Five or six [Olympic] gold medals, to be better than all the different runners in all the disciplines. That would be the end of the discussion. And the goal is never to have the discussion again."
So he wanted to be the best runner in history ................ in all disciplines. He is possibly thinking about 800m to Marathon as in the 2 threads mentioned in my previous post. But he is certainly not only thinking about the 1500m/ mile.
He mention 5-6 Olympic golds but I don´t think he believes that is sufficient. I think we have to see it in connection what he otherwise has stated in the last year or two, including that he wants to break all WRs from the 1500m to the Marathon.
I also think it is understood that he must take at least as many WC golds.
If he can do this he is close to be the new Goat, especially if he also can do something in X country and on the roads. BUT IS IT REALISTIC?
Let´s take the WRs first:
More than 5 years ago I predicted that he would take all the WRs between 1500m and 10,000m and I have of course not changed my mind since he now has taken a few and is much closer to the rest of them. PROVIDED HE OVERCOMES HIS INJURY PROBLEMS SO HE CAN TRAIN AS USUAL.
The 1500m and the mile:
I predict that he will have both of them at latest at the end of the next year´s season.
He could in my opinion have taken the mile WR in Eugene if the conditions had been better (no jetlag, no wind, better pacing, evening race) OR in Brüssel if he had run the mile instead of the 2.000m. His 2000m WR equals a mile in around 3:42 (the WR is 3:43.13).
In the 1500m he needs to run around 0.3 seconds faster per lap and he can do that when he has improved his aerobic capacity a bit more. His training has given him steady aerobic improvements for 15 years and there is no reason to believe it will stop soon.
3000m:
Many here will possibly agree that he could have taken it last year if he had run it in Paris instead of the 2 miles. And it will be even easier as he developes further aerobically.
5000m and 10,000m:
I believe him when he states that he gets relatively better as the distance increases so he can also break these WRs if he continues his efficient, mainly aerobic training.
---------------
If he is close to the WRs in the 1500m and the 5000m it of course makes him the favorite for gold in these 2 distances in Paris which would mean he can get 5 Olympic golds if he can keep up the steam until the 2028 Los Angeles OG. And possible a number of WC golds too.
Bekele has 3 olympic golds and 5 WC golds but Jakob must have more to try to equal Bekele´s 12 X country WC golds.
It would also help if he could take some X country golds (on not too hilly courses) and some road golds ( he would have run in Riga last year if not getting married and do anybody (apart from a few American patriots) doubt that he could have taken the mile gold?)
I also think he will be a monster on the HM if he end up running this distance (probably not before OG Los Angeles). I think that his current TRESHOLD PACE indicates a HM in under the current WR and that is why he considers the HM to be his best distance.
I will here only add (to my previous answers to your posts) that if Jakob is as strong in the 10k as you think, then, yeas, I think he could win a WC xc or two. F.ex in the current course (not-hilly), and even against athletes like Cheptegei, Kiplimo and Aregawi! (So is Jakob that strong -I frankly don’t know. He has surprised before.).
This thread has essentially been ruined by a lunatic who is completely obsessed with Herb Elliott.
It would be very difficult to rank Elliott as even one of the top 30 or so 1500m/mile runners of all time. He isn't comparable to someone like Jim Ryun in terms of pure talent and being undefeated over a couple of years with a much narrower and shallower talent pool isn't something we can relate to the world of miling in 2024.
As you show, there is a place even for the least-informed in such discussions.
This thread has essentially been ruined by a lunatic who is completely obsessed with Herb Elliott.
It would be very difficult to rank Elliott as even one of the top 30 or so 1500m/mile runners of all time. He isn't comparable to someone like Jim Ryun in terms of pure talent and being undefeated over a couple of years with a much narrower and shallower talent pool isn't something we can relate to the world of miling in 2024.
As you show, there is a place even for the least-informed in such discussions.
Possibly you're just an older guy who watched Herb Elliott when you were a kid and he was your hero. There's no other reason to rank him as this wild outlier in historical terms. If he had to race against Ryun he would have been destroyed.
This thread has descended into a tantrum by a drunk 70 year old man who can't have a civilized conversation with people who disagree with him.
Your problem here is as follows:
1. Nothing in Armstronglivs posts gives association to drunkenness.
2. There’s nothing wrong in being a “70 year old man”.
3. I myself have disagreed a lot with Armstronglivs in multiple threads -not a single time has he insulted me.
4. You repeatability use words like “dumb” in your posts, and hidden behind (possibly multiple) unregistered handle (s) -are you surprised by the problems in having “a civilised conversation” given your style here..?
Possibly you're just an older guy who watched Herb Elliott when you were a kid and he was your hero. There's no other reason to rank him as this wild outlier in historical terms. If he had to race against Ryun he would have been destroyed.
A guy who ran 3.35.6 in 1960 (winning by three seconds over guys that not at all were nobodies) on the dirt, running wide bends, in an Olympic final, doesn’t get destroyed (or probably even beaten) by nobody we so far have seen in the history of athletics…!
" My goal was to be the best runner in history....” “(It would take) Five or six [Olympic] gold medals, to be better than all the different runners in all the disciplines. That would be the end of the discussion. And the goal is never to have the discussion again."
So he wanted to be the best runner in history ................ in all disciplines. He is possibly thinking about 800m to Marathon as in the 2 threads mentioned in my previous post. But he is certainly not only thinking about the 1500m/ mile.
He mention 5-6 Olympic golds but I don´t think he believes that is sufficient. I think we have to see it in connection what he otherwise has stated in the last year or two, including that he wants to break all WRs from the 1500m to the Marathon.
I also think it is understood that he must take at least as many WC golds.
If he can do this he is close to be the new Goat, especially if he also can do something in X country and on the roads. BUT IS IT REALISTIC?
Let´s take the WRs first:
More than 5 years ago I predicted that he would take all the WRs between 1500m and 10,000m and I have of course not changed my mind since he now has taken a few and is much closer to the rest of them. PROVIDED HE OVERCOMES HIS INJURY PROBLEMS SO HE CAN TRAIN AS USUAL.
The 1500m and the mile:
I predict that he will have both of them at latest at the end of the next year´s season.
He could in my opinion have taken the mile WR in Eugene if the conditions had been better (no jetlag, no wind, better pacing, evening race) OR in Brüssel if he had run the mile instead of the 2.000m. His 2000m WR equals a mile in around 3:42 (the WR is 3:43.13).
In the 1500m he needs to run around 0.3 seconds faster per lap and he can do that when he has improved his aerobic capacity a bit more. His training has given him steady aerobic improvements for 15 years and there is no reason to believe it will stop soon.
3000m:
Many here will possibly agree that he could have taken it last year if he had run it in Paris instead of the 2 miles. And it will be even easier as he developes further aerobically.
5000m and 10,000m:
I believe him when he states that he gets relatively better as the distance increases so he can also break these WRs if he continues his efficient, mainly aerobic training.
---------------
If he is close to the WRs in the 1500m and the 5000m it of course makes him the favorite for gold in these 2 distances in Paris which would mean he can get 5 Olympic golds if he can keep up the steam until the 2028 Los Angeles OG. And possible a number of WC golds too.
Bekele has 3 olympic golds and 5 WC golds but Jakob must have more to try to equal Bekele´s 12 X country WC golds.
It would also help if he could take some X country golds (on not too hilly courses) and some road golds ( he would have run in Riga last year if not getting married and do anybody (apart from a few American patriots) doubt that he could have taken the mile gold?)
I also think he will be a monster on the HM if he end up running this distance (probably not before OG Los Angeles). I think that his current TRESHOLD PACE indicates a HM in under the current WR and that is why he considers the HM to be his best distance.
Everything you say about Jakob becoming the best in all running disciplines in years to come remains fantasy until it is accomplished. For now, it is largely his fantasy and those of running fans who simply do not recognise how difficult it is even for a very talented athlete to dominate one event let alone a range of them.
Jakob will be irrelevant in any event shorter than the 1500. At his age and with injuries the chances of gaining the world records in the 1500/mile are receding. He has been shown to be vulnerable in championship races at that distance. His best distances appear to be non-championship events from the 2k to 2miles. He has won a WC 5k title but there has been no indication that he could take the wr for that event and dominate it in Olympic and WC competition in years to come, as Bekele once did. There is nothing that puts him in contention with Bekele at any greater distance, such as the 10k.
If he is fit enough to compete at Paris - and doesn't have a "cold" - I would expect him to at least medal in one event, maybe two. But with the competition out there another gold is a longer shot. He's trying to talk himself into the history books. It won't happen.
I think if we discuss who THE Goat is it must be the guy who is from 800m to Marathon. Sprint is another business.
But it also makes sense to talk about the Goat in the 800m, the 1500/ mile, the 10,000m, in X country and more.
I would say in the same order:
Rudisha
El-Guerrouj
Bekele (Gebrselassie close)
Bekele.
I saw that somebody wrote that your hero Herb Elliott wouldn´t even be in top 10 for 1500m/ mile runners.
I would say that he should be no. 3 or 4 competing with Snell about no 3.
Elliott can´t beat El-G olympic gold and silver, his 4 WC golds and his WRs in the 1500m, the mile and the 2000m.
Neither can he beat Coe´s double olympic gold and WRs in the 1500m and the mile.
Jakob will move in front of Coe if he wins gold in the 1500m in Paris AND takes the 1500m and mile WR (he has beaten the 1500m Goat´s 2000m WR with a significant margin. And won the European championship 1500m twice; Coe hasn´t an European 1500m gold).
Have you scrutinized the links I provided above to the 100 best middle and distance runners threads?
As you show, there is a place even for the least-informed in such discussions.
Possibly you're just an older guy who watched Herb Elliott when you were a kid and he was your hero. There's no other reason to rank him as this wild outlier in historical terms. If he had to race against Ryun he would have been destroyed.
He wouldn't. I watched Ryun and all those who followed. But applying your kind of argument, every runner who has run better than 3:33 for the 1500 is better than Ryun. I'm guessing that will be quite a few. So the American shouldn't even be in the conversation. That kind of argument implies the truly great runners can only be in the present. A naive and mistaken view of the sport - and indeed any sport.