rekrunner wrote:
Shopping hour wrote:
Maybe, but I don't care.
You cared enough to invent another lie. Makes me wonder what you care about, that you keep posting fabrications.
Logic and reason.
rekrunner wrote:
Shopping hour wrote:
Maybe, but I don't care.
You cared enough to invent another lie. Makes me wonder what you care about, that you keep posting fabrications.
Logic and reason.
Shopping hour wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
You cared enough to invent another lie. Makes me wonder what you care about, that you keep posting fabrications.
Logic and reason.
Touche'.
Shopping hour wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
You cared enough to invent another lie. Makes me wonder what you care about, that you keep posting fabrications.
Logic and reason.
It's because you care about logic and reason that you feel the need to fabricate lies?
The starting point for logic and reason is real world data and observations, not fabrications.
This debate is going nowhere over a very long time. Correct me if I’m wrong and this is perhaps far too over simplified:
Armstronglivs says that you can see the effect of epo because runners who are using it breath less at the end of the race because they are not as far in oxygen debt and because they can recover more quickly.
Rekrunner is asking for proof about Armstronglivs claim.
I’m interested in this as I want to know what rate of breathing shows you are on Epo or not. While my view is that epo works for endurance athletes, being able to tell if someone is on it based purely off how they are breathing seems a far reach. Has armstronglivs got data showing, for example, the breathing rate of someone who is on epo at the end of a race vs the breathing rate of others who are not? I don’t think you can just look at someone and say they are on epo as they do not appear to be breathing hard. If epo, for example, gives 4-5% advantage, if breathing rate matches that (I.e breathing 4-5% less) then detecting it by naked eye judgement is probably not that easy. And is it even correct to compare between athletes. They may have different breathing rates without epo influence.
You're right; this debate is going in circles. However, I'm going to side with Armstronglivs based some pretty good anecdotal evidence, IMO.
Let's take Rashid Ramzi, a confirmed EPO user and probably a career doper, IMO.
2008 Olympics @ Beijing: Ramzi smokes a world-class field winning the gold only to have it stripped a year later after testing positive IC (retest) for CERA, a third-generation EPO product. In that race, Ramzi unleashes a torrid last lap that puts the field in difficulty eventually holding off a charging Kiprop at the line. Ramzi immediately drops down to his knees for his Muslim worship, and looking closely there is no hint of any labored breathing nor any sign of respiratory distress. And keep in mind he's kneeling down where circulation is going to be compromised to his lower extremities. He looks like he just completed some warm up laps at moderate intensity instead of an Olympic gold medal run at 3:32.
Here's Ramzi competing in the 2005 WC @ Helsinki where he doubled as champion in the 1500 & 800 (PB in the 8). Though Ramzi did not test positive for EPO or any other PED, reports were that his blood draws (one before the 1500 & one before the 800) showed astronomically high Off-scores, suggesting 02-vector doping. However, the ABP wouldn't go into effect until 4 yrs later where hematological anomalies could be used to ban an athlete after the proper hearing process.
Again, in these two races, Ramzi smokes the field and kneels down immediately after the race showing absolutely no hint of labored breathing nor respiratory stress:
Hrshrs wrote:
This debate is going nowhere over a very long time. Correct me if I’m wrong and this is perhaps far too over simplified:
Armstronglivs says that you can see the effect of epo because runners who are using it breath less at the end of the race because they are not as far in oxygen debt and because they can recover more quickly.
Rekrunner is asking for proof about Armstronglivs claim.
I’m interested in this as I want to know what rate of breathing shows you are on Epo or not. While my view is that epo works for endurance athletes, being able to tell if someone is on it based purely off how they are breathing seems a far reach. Has armstronglivs got data showing, for example, the breathing rate of someone who is on epo at the end of a race vs the breathing rate of others who are not? I don’t think you can just look at someone and say they are on epo as they do not appear to be breathing hard. If epo, for example, gives 4-5% advantage, if breathing rate matches that (I.e breathing 4-5% less) then detecting it by naked eye judgement is probably not that easy. And is it even correct to compare between athletes. They may have different breathing rates without epo influence.
This thread has gone nowhere for 23 pages, as Armstronglivs and Shopping Hour would prefer to spin me on a merry-go-round and insult my intelligence, rather than lend any credibility to their notions.
"Debate" seems inapplicable, as I have not offered or adopted any contrary position. I simply asked "what do experts think?" The only "debate" seems to be whose burden it is to find any basis for Armstronglivs' stated ideas of breathing and the connection to the power of EPO.
"Proof" is equally inapplicable, as I did not ask, nor require proof. Citations are not proof, but they are evidence that the origin of ideas are from others. I'm asking if these claims are original ideas from Armstronglivs, or whether they are original ideas of experts in the field.
To address your question, the statement only makes sense if we first assume that El G has an elevated RBC count, and such count was elevated by EPO. Then we must have some data and controlled observations to help establish if there is a relationship between breathing and elevated RBC count.
Many EPO studies which measure VO2 usually shows an increase in VO2max. This is the scientific "evidence" that EPO "works". The question remains unanswered (in this thread) as to how we get from the scientific observation of increased VO2max and increased VO2 utilization at sub-max, to an observation of "scarcely breathing".
There are many studies that have investigated excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC) -- if there is authoritative support of this inverse "increased VO2 utilization"/"decreased breathing" relationship, and the causes, seems like that would be a likely source of further investigation.
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
You're right; this debate is going in circles. However, I'm going to side with Armstronglivs based some pretty good anecdotal evidence, IMO.
Let's take Rashid Ramzi, a confirmed EPO user and probably a career doper, IMO.
Again, not sure "debate" is the right term here -- that seems rather generous.
I would call your post a classic demonstration of "confirmation bias" -- you see what you want to see in a cherry-picked example because it confirms your ideas.
It seems to imply that clean runners are not able to destroy an elite field with a fast kick on trained talent alone, resulting in a similar breathing pattern post-race.
I should note that your best example was much slower than El G.
In my personal experience, and the experience of other runners I know, running my best times seemed surprisingly easy, while slower times seemed much harder. Maybe it would be helpful to think about your personal experience and ask yourself if the changes in efforts and best times can be connected to increased RBCs.
Well...substitute "debate" with "argument" then.
I see the empirical evidence demonstrated in the race knowing as a fact that Ramzi was on "CERA" for the 1500 final (no speculation), and how badly he destroyed the field (top runners like Willis, Baala & Choge were dropped like a hot potato coming into the home stretch). Only Kiprop mounted a last second charge significantly closing the gap, and as also a confirmed doper, he could have been doped for this race as well.
I'm sure Willis would disagree with you that Ramzi didn't have any unfair advantage due to doping. Which leads me to question that have ask you before - do you have any evidence that Ramzi would have won the race clean? Because you know you "believe" EPO had no effect on Ramzi's performance.
I'm sure that clean runners are able to destroy an elite field on trained talent alone. But Ramzi is not a clean athlete and I believe that despite his talent & training he would not have won this race clean - maybe not even medaled. And you would have to go back and research 1500m races where absolutely "clean" runners destroyed an elite field and carefully watch the breathing patterns post-race. Clearly with Ramzi there's absolutely no evidence of any labored breathing or respiratory distress whatsoever as soon as he hit the line and immediately knelt down on all fours. That's pretty strong anecdotal evidence, IMO.
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
You're right; this debate is going in circles. However, I'm going to side with Armstronglivs based some pretty good anecdotal evidence, IMO.
Let's take Rashid Ramzi, a confirmed EPO user and probably a career doper, IMO.
2008 Olympics @ Beijing: Ramzi smokes a world-class field winning the gold only to have it stripped a year later after testing positive IC (retest) for CERA, a third-generation EPO product. In that race, Ramzi unleashes a torrid last lap that puts the field in difficulty eventually holding off a charging Kiprop at the line. Ramzi immediately drops down to his knees for his Muslim worship, and looking closely there is no hint of any labored breathing nor any sign of respiratory distress. And keep in mind he's kneeling down where circulation is going to be compromised to his lower extremities. He looks like he just completed some warm up laps at moderate intensity instead of an Olympic gold medal run at 3:32.
https://youtu.be/Xyt6NAkgawEHere's Ramzi competing in the 2005 WC @ Helsinki where he doubled as champion in the 1500 & 800 (PB in the 8). Though Ramzi did not test positive for EPO or any other PED, reports were that his blood draws (one before the 1500 & one before the 800) showed astronomically high Off-scores, suggesting 02-vector doping. However, the ABP wouldn't go into effect until 4 yrs later where hematological anomalies could be used to ban an athlete after the proper hearing process.
Again, in these two races, Ramzi smokes the field and kneels down immediately after the race showing absolutely no hint of labored breathing nor respiratory stress:
https://youtu.be/7tRWhGaefa4https://youtu.be/abxUL7zz1nI
Not defending Ramzi but you guys must stop using the "not even breathing hard at the end" argument.
There's adrenaline, elation, there's hard breathing that oftentimes goes unnoticed.
Do you think Willis dopes? I don't. And when he won the Commonwealth gold he wasn't exactly collapsed on the track. He celebrated, he hugged his opponents, etc.
Just an example.
There are so many.
rekrunner wrote:
Shopping hour wrote:
Logic and reason.
It's because you care about logic and reason that you feel the need to fabricate lies?
The starting point for logic and reason is real world data and observations, not fabrications.
That's what i used. No lies.
ddddddddddddddddk wrote:
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
You're right; this debate is going in circles. However, I'm going to side with Armstronglivs based some pretty good anecdotal evidence, IMO.
Let's take Rashid Ramzi, a confirmed EPO user and probably a career doper, IMO.
2008 Olympics @ Beijing: Ramzi smokes a world-class field winning the gold only to have it stripped a year later after testing positive IC (retest) for CERA, a third-generation EPO product. In that race, Ramzi unleashes a torrid last lap that puts the field in difficulty eventually holding off a charging Kiprop at the line. Ramzi immediately drops down to his knees for his Muslim worship, and looking closely there is no hint of any labored breathing nor any sign of respiratory distress. And keep in mind he's kneeling down where circulation is going to be compromised to his lower extremities. He looks like he just completed some warm up laps at moderate intensity instead of an Olympic gold medal run at 3:32.
https://youtu.be/Xyt6NAkgawEHere's Ramzi competing in the 2005 WC @ Helsinki where he doubled as champion in the 1500 & 800 (PB in the 8). Though Ramzi did not test positive for EPO or any other PED, reports were that his blood draws (one before the 1500 & one before the 800) showed astronomically high Off-scores, suggesting 02-vector doping. However, the ABP wouldn't go into effect until 4 yrs later where hematological anomalies could be used to ban an athlete after the proper hearing process.
Again, in these two races, Ramzi smokes the field and kneels down immediately after the race showing absolutely no hint of labored breathing nor respiratory stress:
https://youtu.be/7tRWhGaefa4https://youtu.be/abxUL7zz1nINot defending Ramzi but you guys must stop using the "not even breathing hard at the end" argument.
There's adrenaline, elation, there's hard breathing that oftentimes goes unnoticed.
Do you think Willis dopes? I don't. And when he won the Commonwealth gold he wasn't exactly collapsed on the track. He celebrated, he hugged his opponents, etc.
Just an example.
There are so many.
Completely agree.
ddddddddddddddddk wrote:
Not defending Ramzi but you guys must stop using the "not even breathing hard at the end" argument.
There's adrenaline, elation, there's hard breathing that oftentimes goes unnoticed.
Do you think Willis dopes? I don't. And when he won the Commonwealth gold he wasn't exactly collapsed on the track. He celebrated, he hugged his opponents, etc.
Just an example.
There are so many.
"Not defending Ramzi"...yeah right, give me break. So, as soon as Ramzi hits the line after that blistering last lap showing absolutely no labored breathing right before kneeling down to all fours for his worship tightening the chest cavity -- you think that's normal?(FFS, even Baala looks like he clasped at the finish line while doper Ramzi effortlessly finishes. Lol).
This thread is really pathetic with the doping apologists including numeral uno apologist rekrunner. Now posters are defending one of most prolific dopers in middle-distance history.
Plain pathetic...have fun apologists - I'm out of here.
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
ddddddddddddddddk wrote:
Not defending Ramzi but you guys must stop using the "not even breathing hard at the end" argument.
There's adrenaline, elation, there's hard breathing that oftentimes goes unnoticed.
Do you think Willis dopes? I don't. And when he won the Commonwealth gold he wasn't exactly collapsed on the track. He celebrated, he hugged his opponents, etc.
Just an example.
There are so many.
"Not defending Ramzi"...yeah right, give me break. So, as soon as Ramzi hits the line after that blistering last lap showing absolutely no labored breathing right before kneeling down to all fours for his worship tightening the chest cavity -- you think that's normal?(FFS, even Baala looks like he clasped at the finish line while doper Ramzi effortlessly finishes. Lol).
This thread is really pathetic with the doping apologists including numeral uno apologist rekrunner. Now posters are defending one of most prolific dopers in middle-distance history.
Plain pathetic...have fun apologists - I'm out of here.
No one is defending Ramzi. We’re just saying your evidence for your overall theory is garbage. Find better evidence and then try again.
EPO boosts B level guy to double World and Oly Champion. Said Champion scarcely breathes while crushing field. Pretty sure that's all the possible evidence needed and provided.
Next!
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
Well...substitute "debate" with "argument" then.
I see the empirical evidence demonstrated in the race knowing as a fact that Ramzi was on "CERA" for the 1500 final (no speculation), and how badly he destroyed the field (top runners like Willis, Baala & Choge were dropped like a hot potato coming into the home stretch). Only Kiprop mounted a last second charge significantly closing the gap, and as also a confirmed doper, he could have been doped for this race as well.
I'm sure Willis would disagree with you that Ramzi didn't have any unfair advantage due to doping. Which leads me to question that have ask you before - do you have any evidence that Ramzi would have won the race clean? Because you know you "believe" EPO had no effect on Ramzi's performance.
I'm sure that clean runners are able to destroy an elite field on trained talent alone. But Ramzi is not a clean athlete and I believe that despite his talent & training he would not have won this race clean - maybe not even medaled. And you would have to go back and research 1500m races where absolutely "clean" runners destroyed an elite field and carefully watch the breathing patterns post-race. Clearly with Ramzi there's absolutely no evidence of any labored breathing or respiratory distress whatsoever as soon as he hit the line and immediately knelt down on all fours. That's pretty strong anecdotal evidence, IMO.
It sounds like you don't know what the subject of the "argument" was, so you are bringing back the only argument you know.
The questions arising from Armstronglivs' comments were about the relation between breathing and the powerful effect of EPO.
My objection to using the term "debate" is that it requires (at least) two sides: one side arguing for a position, and one against.
In this instant case here, the side arguing for "breathing/EPO" relation have not provided arguments from any experts in the field, and on the other side, I am not arguing for or against a relation, but asking what experts in the field have already said on the topic.
This cannot be resolved by anonymous posters giving their personal opinions.
Shopping hour wrote:
That's what i used. No lies.
Two fabrications:
- you said there was "contradictory evidence" that I ignored
- you said that I've "already said you're definitely unsure of everything"
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
"Not defending Ramzi"...yeah right, give me break. So, as soon as Ramzi hits the line after that blistering last lap showing absolutely no labored breathing right before kneeling down to all fours for his worship tightening the chest cavity -- you think that's normal?(FFS, even Baala looks like he clasped at the finish line while doper Ramzi effortlessly finishes. Lol).
This thread is really pathetic with the doping apologists including numeral uno apologist rekrunner. Now posters are defending one of most prolific dopers in middle-distance history.
Plain pathetic...have fun apologists - I'm out of here.
Don't mistake criticism of your posts as a defense or an apology of doping or dopers.
This is a common, and dishonest, diversion.
The target of my comments is you and your posts.
If you want to continue down the path of anecdote of Ramzi, you need to add perspective.
Was his breathing abnormal? What do experts in the field say?
How does your example of Ramzi compare to clean runners?
Can we use the example of Ramzi to draw conclusions about El G?
While your answer to these questions are predictable, what do the experts say?
ddddddddddddddddk wrote:
... you guys must stop using the "not even breathing hard at the end" argument.
+1
Lacking any expert commentary, it looks completely indefensible.
rekrunner wrote:
Shopping hour wrote:
That's what i used. No lies.
Two fabrications:
- you said there was "contradictory evidence" that I ignored
- you said that I've "already said you're definitely unsure of everything"
Nope. Both true.
I may have paraphrased but your whole schtick is about being undecided. You never choose your side. It's always a flaky kinda sorta maybe. No amount of evidence is enough. You just keep moving the goalposts. it's what you do.
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
ddddddddddddddddk wrote:
Not defending Ramzi but you guys must stop using the "not even breathing hard at the end" argument.
There's adrenaline, elation, there's hard breathing that oftentimes goes unnoticed.
Do you think Willis dopes? I don't. And when he won the Commonwealth gold he wasn't exactly collapsed on the track. He celebrated, he hugged his opponents, etc.
Just an example.
There are so many.
"Not defending Ramzi"...yeah right, give me break. So, as soon as Ramzi hits the line after that blistering last lap showing absolutely no labored breathing right before kneeling down to all fours for his worship tightening the chest cavity -- you think that's normal?(FFS, even Baala looks like he clasped at the finish line while doper Ramzi effortlessly finishes. Lol).
This thread is really pathetic with the doping apologists including numeral uno apologist rekrunner. Now posters are defending one of most prolific dopers in middle-distance history.
Plain pathetic...have fun apologists - I'm out of here.
Rekrunner is simply a religious nut in drag. To enter into an exchange with him is like entertaining a Jehovah's Witness on your doorstep. Engage with him at your peril. Nothing you can say will shake him from his fanatical beliefs and reality has no place amongst his delusions. It is a clear sign of his madness that he has spent 25 pages contending with what I did not say - while ignoring what I did say - because he can only understand what the voices in his head are telling him.