Down goes the Dow

carmine9 wrote:

Insiders and Big players manipulating Tesla stock price.

The recent massive daily moves cannot be attributed to anything else

If I recall correctly, days ago a story was out about a $2.9 Billion investment by Hertz Car Rental buying 100,000 Teslas. A day or two later Musk says there was no signed contract. This week, the formerly bankrupt Hertz goes public in an IPO. By any standard, what goes on in the current market, including Musk Tweets, is unethical, if not criminal.

You said you were going to buy some a couple of weeks ago.,

Any updates you care to share?

* In the interest of full disclosure, neither I nor anyone residing in my household hold any positions in the investments being discussed herein.

seattle prattle wrote:I think you need to learn the difference between investment professionals (like hedge fund owner Michael Burry and MarketInsider.com journalists) and average dumbos on the internet with names that include words like "idiot".

the hell did I do to piss you off?

VS-SJW-IR-TS idiot wrote:

seattle prattle wrote:I think you need to learn the difference between investment professionals (like hedge fund owner Michael Burry and MarketInsider.com journalists) and average dumbos on the internet with names that include words like "idiot".

the hell did I do to piss you off?

He’s making fun of me.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

VS-SJW-IR-TS idiot wrote:

the hell did I do to piss you off?

He’s making fun of me.

yeah like he (Igy) said.

Simply being modest about our humble non-professional status. And I was refering to a class of investors that included myself - non-professional. As in, 'us dumbos'.'

I mean, really, I wouldn't even have mentioned you except I like your handle.

I prefer the previously identified not so bright sister-in-law. Brains has nothing to do with it, Sir Isaac Newton was snookered during the South Sea Bubble of the 1700s. Today the craziest ideas know no bounds for explanations of why they will go higher.

seattle prattle wrote:I mean, really, I wouldn't even have mentioned you except I like your handle.

Ah cool, it read like I was being singled out as "the dumbo," not lumped in as one of "us dumbos," which hurt my feelings... ;-)

I would look more to people who should be responsibile to excercise some discretion. But they will be fine regarfdless what happens in markets. Investors as a class may just be naive of system that will promote almost any idea when the farfetched becomes acceptable.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-08/amc-theaters-weighs-launching-cryptocurrency-nfts-for-movies

A couple of cents above today’s close of $6.17 a share.

VS-SJW-IR-TS idiot wrote:

seattle prattle wrote:I mean, really, I wouldn't even have mentioned you except I like your handle.

Ah cool, it read like I was being singled out as "the dumbo," not lumped in as one of "us dumbos," which hurt my feelings... ;-)

I like to explain to people that i get much of my investing advice from random people on the internet. One blatantly masquerading as a Professor/Doctor and another who refers to himself as "the Idiot."

And those are among the few who I can trust. ;)

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

seattle prattle wrote:

You said you were going to buy some a couple of weeks ago.,

Any updates you care to share?

* In the interest of full disclosure, neither I nor anyone residing in my household hold any positions in the investments being discussed herein.

A couple of cents above today’s close of $6.17 a share.

Well, good on you, Igy! (I think),

Prof. Racket wrote:

M@serati wrote:

Have you guys clued in yet? I gave you ample notice. Blockchain is for real, and defi has a future. I am buying more btc this week, it has broken out of the 60-66 box.

2012 called and wants their buzzword back.

People realized it was a dead end technology almost 10 years ago. Does it have a purpose? Sure - drug cartels have to launder their money somehow. UN estimates that something like 5% of the global money supply is laundered. Why not with some horsesh!t investment vehicle like bitcoin or NFTs.

If you really wanna put bitcoin up in a fight against the USD then just ask yourself how many nuclear aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines are backing bitcoin.

And how well have those nuclear assets preserved the dollar's value?

That's right:

As for criminal activity and money laundering, this is one source that suggests that the proportion of crime using fiat vastly outstrips that using bitcoin:

What do you know about money laundering? I'll tell you what: exactly nothing.

I will reiterate 2 things: 1) everybody who matters is IN (just today another one publicly admitted, Tim Cook); and 2) value is what people say it is. There is no such thing as "intrinsic" value, it is all human-created. Nothing would have any "value" if it was not of perceived benefit to people. In bitcoin, I was playing with house money long ago. I have taken profits. I am still in. TO ME it has been very valuable, and has had a terrific return. That return has been based upon other people's interest and adoption of the vehicle that is bitcoin. It is no different than Toyota selling cars--they purchase raw materials, add workmanship, and those who find sufficient value in the utility of one of their cars pay for one the price that Toyota needs in order to keep producing them. Bitcoin's raw material is all laid out. All of the network participants add workmanship, and the new bitcoin network is superior to the old. Those who find sufficient value in the utility of a bitcoin in the new network pay for one the price that a bitcoin seller needs in order to part with one.

The seller trades utilities. Bitcoin is not currently for transactions, and may never be. Otoh the USD is not for wealth preservation, and never has been. Just as people sell bitcoin for USD, so do they sell USD for bitcoin.

I understand the questions about bitcoin, notably the suggestion that all the market power is in the hands of a few. Even if true, do you believe that the situation is any different for the USD? And how has that worked out for the USD? You will notice that the value of the USD initially rose, hit a peak, then has progressively fallen, notably since the inception of the Federal Reserve.

I am no pollyanna. Bitcoin is no panacea. NOTHING is. But it does serve a function, and enough people find sufficient utility in that function to assign a value, and if they have the resources, they trade for it according to their judgment and proclivities. Same as for anything else. You sound like a guy who doesn't do many international money transfers with currency conversion, and associated fees. For me, the savings on conversion and other fees alone has made bitcoin worth it. It has been a superior product for such an application, if one can either operate quickly, or ride out volatility. It has been better than even solutions like Transferwise.

The more people find utility in bitcoin, the larger will be the network, and the greater will be its price. This must be so, because the increasing volume of transactions needs to be supported by the increasing total value of the system. It is just an artifact. It could just as well have been set up such that the price of one bitcoin was invariate but the supply was flexible in the manner of stock split, rather than an invariate supply and flexible price, however to my mind that is an inferior solution for many reasons.

There is one dimension of all this that nobody has yet considered, even regulators--at least as far as I know--and it could at once torpedo certain US and other holders, and possibly benefit others. I can't say it on here, but the shift would be seismic, and would result in a huge reduction in the price of bitcoin, at least in the short term. Really though, such a thing would require full international cooperation, which will essentially never happen.

Re: defi. Yes it is difficult to identify value in this space at the moment, because it remains nascent. In all honesty, anyone who tells you any differently is full of it. Defi portfolios are currently a speculative total hodgepodge, much like the early days of the internet. People are gambling that the one that rises 10,000% will more than offset the vast iceberg of dogs that lies beneath it. I am not such a person, the time is not yet ripe for me to pick winners and losers--but I am watching the space, and trying to put all the bs into some sort of order.

To just dismiss crypto out of hand at the moment is IMO foolishly arrogant. I remain open to new possibilities. As I said, I have been playing with house money long ago, and will always have made gains on bitcoin. It is not tulip bulbs, a facile criticism. Everything about tulip bulbs was known and understood, there was really nowhere for the bulbs themselves or their uses to develop. Any development would have been de minimis. The same cannot be said for crypto, blockchain, and defi.

I agree with Cook that "it’s reasonable to own it as part of a diversified portfolio".

“To just dismiss crypto out of hand at the moment is IMO foolishly arrogant. I remain open to new possibilities. As I said, I have been playing with house money long ago, and will always have made gains on bitcoin. It is not tulip bulbs, a facile criticism. Everything about tulip bulbs was known and understood, there was really nowhere for the bulbs themselves or their uses to develop. Any development would have been de minimis. The same cannot be said for crypto, blockchain, and defi.”

We know the supposed scarcity of tulips of that time and today’s bubble Bitcoin are the same.

In the aftermath of the coming financial crisis historians may point to the crypto craze as the trigger that saw $Trillions wiped out in something of zero value, prone to manipulation, and with little regulation or protection for the naive. Compounding loses in overvalued stocks, bonds, and real estate, as fear of losses, and collapse of wild eyed assumptions, drives cash to become preferred asset class.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

In the aftermath of the coming financial crisis historians may point to the crypto craze as the trigger that saw $Trillions wiped out in something of zero value, prone to manipulation, and with little regulation or protection for the naive. Compounding loses in overvalued stocks, bonds, and real estate, as fear of losses, and collapse of wild eyed assumptions, drives cash to become preferred asset class.

Inflation increases. Stocks don’t necessarily go up during rampant inflation because of demand issues. Fed can’t raise rates too much/fast. Gov prints more money to give to low/mid class. Bonds return nothing. Gold who cares, too high carrying costs.

Where do the people put their money to protect against rabid inflation? Bitcoin.

Inflection point reached, the crowd rushes to get in.

Iggy stays HODL in Hussmann and gets -10%/year return against the -20%/year USD.

Great.

I'm betting if that were to happen, you'll be using your stinkin' crypto buy your next iPhone.

Don't fight the trend. My friend,

Which is just another way to say, wake up and smell the Tulips.

M@serati wrote:

Have you guys clued in yet? I gave you ample notice. Blockchain is for real, and defi has a future. I am buying more btc this week, it has broken out of the 60-66 box.

What coins do you buy besides BTC? My portfolio is 95% ETH and I have a little SOL, ADA and DOT now. I've been meaning to buy BTC every paycheck too.

The boomers always have the same arguments against crypto. They call it tulips and say it's only used for illegal activities. All crypto transactions and wallets are traceable. When it comes to illegal activity, cash is king.

They also argue against crypto as a currency. A simple Google search would teach them it's much more than that. Defi, smart contracts, NFTs etc. SOL processes transactions faster than VISA.

The Metaverse is the next big thing. Meta stocks are already flying: FB, NVDA, AMD, RBLX, AMZN, GOOGL etc. Coins such as META, SAND, ENJ will probably be next.

Or, your theory collapses as the market comes to grips with the reality that Congress and the Fed are powerless to manipulate markets further. Few things retain their value or go up like cash, gold, and funds like HSGFX. Stocks bottom over a two year period down 85%, bonds down 20%, Bitcoin and other cryptos go to zero in the aftermath of bursting of the All Everything Bubble. The reputation of Central Bankers are ruined, and the population turns against the bad advice from Wall Street, looking for scapegoats for the crisis. CNBC and Bloomberg ratings collapse, shareholder lawsuits become common place. Congress holds hearings bringing to task many of the the personalities, private and public, that were responsible for promoting the recklessness. The stock market reaches a new highs again the fall of 2040, 19 years later, on Igy’s 90th birthday.

Hmmm maybe a short candidate: https://twitter.com/NuanceBro/status/1456371362717700101?s=20