Upending years of precedent and categorically removing rights from a subset of the population is not obviously correct or rational.
It very well could be correct and rational, if the precedent starting case was flawed to begin with. You know the history of Roe.
Substantive due process is a well accepted doctrine that is only controversial to the most ardent conservatives justices.
That is not true. Substantive due process has always been controversial, because of its open ended nature. It is hardly the "most ardent conservative justices" that have criticized it.
Nothing changes the fact that Roe was not a huge political fulcrum until there was a massive push to turn it into a national issue from conservative oligarchs. It was incredibly politically savvy but anyone who acts like this decisions is anything but political gamesmanship has been hoodwinked by smarter and wealthier interests.
I think its actually a bit of the opposite. Abortion wasn't a huge national issue until Roe made it one. And if you read Alito's opinion in Dobbs, it is hardly "political gamesmanship."
Roe was a terribly flawed case, even if one is a strong supporter of substantive due process doctrines.
Except that Roe wasn't terribly flawed at all, it was logically reasoned from then current precedent. It simply held that the right to privacy to practice contraception (Griswold v. Connecticut) logically includes abortion, at least until the fetus is viable, when its right to life would outweigh the mother's privacy rights. As Justice Thomas pointed out in his concurring opinion, if you overrule Roe, you need to consider throwing out all of the other "right to privacy" cases upon which it was based.
Well this entire thread is related to the reversal of Liberal supreme court judges imposing their will on the nation. If you'd just like to stick the last few sentences because it's easier, that's fine.
Pro lifers know that we have to accept draconian Liberal abortion laws when they're passed legitimately. In that case our task is to persuade others if possible.
Roe vs. Wade was illegitimate and everyone knows it. Everyone on both sides knew it wouldn't last.
You do realize that Roe was affirmatively decided by justices appointed by Republican presidents? Roe was a 7-2 decision with 5 votes from justices appointed by Republican presidents. The two dissenting votes were one R and one D. Roe and Casey were not the product of “liberal” sc justices. You don’t know the history of the court or of the case.
Liberals have had 50 years to get an amendment done to protect abortion from state laws. However, they’ve been lazy and relied on Roe v. Wade. All constitutional scholars, no matter their political views, knew that Roe was a flimsy ruling at best. Similar to Plessy v. Ferguson (1896) being overturned by the correct ruling of Brown v. Board of Education (1954). In reality Roe is lucky to have lasted this long.
A constitutional amendment is unnecessary. Nothing except a 60% senate majority stops them even now from simply enacting a federal law guaranteeing access to abortion in all states.
Well this entire thread is related to the reversal of Liberal supreme court judges imposing their will on the nation. If you'd just like to stick the last few sentences because it's easier, that's fine.
Pro lifers know that we have to accept draconian Liberal abortion laws when they're passed legitimately. In that case our task is to persuade others if possible.
Roe vs. Wade was illegitimate and everyone knows it. Everyone on both sides knew it wouldn't last.
You do realize that Roe was affirmatively decided by justices appointed by Republican presidents? Roe was a 7-2 decision with 5 votes from justices appointed by Republican presidents. The two dissenting votes were one R and one D. Roe and Casey were not the product of “liberal” sc justices. You don’t know the history of the court or of the case.
An (R) or (D) after your name doesn't determine whether you're a liberal. The Warren court is widely recognized as liberal.
Using rape victims to allow yourself to kill the inconvenient children you conceive in beyond disgusting. >99% of abortions are not due to rape, yet the abortion-obsessed advocates never mention that or ever advocate make for legal abortions only for rape victims. Why are abortion advocates never honest and up-front about their intentions? It's almost like they know it's wrong.
I accounted for your response in that post. "It's rare so it's fine for rape victims to be forced to carry the baby." I've been very honest with what I believe. I'm just pointing out the worst parts of the decision so that others can see. You believe rape victims should have to carry their rapist's (there you go) baby to term. You do believe that, right? Why don't you be honest now.
I previously said I would be supportive in instances of rape but I'm going back on that. While I'm sympathetic to the horrible situation any victim of rape is in, that still would not justify taking an innocent life. You can call me a horrible person for saying that, I don't really care about your opinion.
The 14th amendment clearly confers a broad right to privacy that encompasses a right to abortion, gay sex, contraception, gay marriage, interracial marriage, etc.
No. No it does not. Read it again and come back.
It’s right there in black and white!
“nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.”
This so obviously protects fundamental rights that are not specifically enumerated elsewhere in the Constitution, including the right to marry, the right to use contraception, and the right to abortion. How can you not see this?
Oh what a relief! If I have a medical or emotional or financial issue, or if I have been raped and have an unwarranted pregnancy and am not sure what to do with this cluster of fertilized eggs, someone from the government, a Ted Cruz type will now make that decision for me.
I am so thankful that people like Ted Cruz, people who know nothing of me or my situation, will tell me what I have to do with my body.
Now we can all have the benefit of a Ted Cruz type stepping into our lives and making life decisions for us.
Don't we all trust the Ted Cruz types making these decisions for us more than our own ability.
(PS no one has told me when a cluster of cells becomes a full person, but I shouldn't make that decision myself for my body, Ted will tell me)
An (R) or (D) after your name doesn't determine whether you're a liberal. The Warren court is widely recognized as liberal.
I love it, three Nixon appointees and two Eisenhower appointees and now they are liberals? Maybe they were simply wise and got it right. Fundamentally, the law is what we say it is. Roe was not wrongly decided, it was simply decided. In a vacuum, Dobbs was not wrongly decided either, but when you throw out the super precedent of Griswold and the reaffirmed precedents of Roe/Casey, that’s dangerous legal ground and a shock to the rule of law. In the end this shock was the product of a single justice (Gorsuch replacing Garland). If Garland was on the court, Robert’s would have written this 5-4 decision upholding the central argument of Roe and reaffirming Griswold. So in the end, a political trick played by McConnell has led to this dramatic change in our jurisprudence. Whatever your view of Roe and abortion rights, you can see why this is a destabilizing event, inviting more chaos, division, rancor and skepticism.
I accounted for your response in that post. "It's rare so it's fine for rape victims to be forced to carry the baby." I've been very honest with what I believe. I'm just pointing out the worst parts of the decision so that others can see. You believe rape victims should have to carry their rapist's (there you go) baby to term. You do believe that, right? Why don't you be honest now.
I previously said I would be supportive in instances of rape but I'm going back on that. While I'm sympathetic to the horrible situation any victim of rape is in, that still would not justify taking an innocent life. You can call me a horrible person for saying that, I don't really care about your opinion.
Nah. It’s pretty clear that the furor over abortion was manufactured by powerful evangelical politicians when they realized they were losing the culture war in the 90s. Only a slim minority of strict anti-abortion types (who are a significant minority of Americans) are religious enough to validly make “sanctity of life” arguments. Most are just standard barely-religious Americans swept up in a few decades of propaganda. Anyone who argues this was done “as the right thing to do” has swallowed the conservative oligarch messaging hook-line-and-sinker.
Thinking that killing people is wrong is a belief manufactured by "powerful evangelical politicians." Interesting argument.
Interpreting our laws correctly isn't the "right thing to do."
Whatever, edgelord, cry harder.
I suggest some Jordan Peterson books. Wakes up at 11 AM. Cries about women. Can’t post with substance. Archetypical.
“nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.”
This so obviously protects fundamental rights that are not specifically enumerated elsewhere in the Constitution, including the right to marry, the right to use contraception, and the right to abortion. How can you not see this?
I have no horse in this race and don’t care about the law on choice vs life, but if I wear an intellectually honest hat, I just don’t see what you are claiming is obvious in black and white. The state is not depriving any person of life by disallowing abortion. The state is not depriving any person of liberty by disallowing abortions beyond denying them the right to kill other people, so whether you consider this argument tenable or not comes down to exactly when you consider a fetus a person.
In any case, keeping or terminating a pregnancy can’t possibly be a woman’s sole decision. The child is also the man’s from whence it came to be.
I accounted for your response in that post. "It's rare so it's fine for rape victims to be forced to carry the baby." I've been very honest with what I believe. I'm just pointing out the worst parts of the decision so that others can see. You believe rape victims should have to carry their rapist's (there you go) baby to term. You do believe that, right? Why don't you be honest now.
I previously said I would be supportive in instances of rape but I'm going back on that. While I'm sympathetic to the horrible situation any victim of rape is in, that still would not justify taking an innocent life. You can call me a horrible person for saying that, I don't really care about your opinion.
No longer an opinion it's a known fact that you are a horrible person. Rupp called and wants you to quit using his name.
Upending years of precedent and categorically removing rights from a subset of the population is not obviously correct or rational. Substantive due process is a well accepted doctrine that is only controversial to the most ardent conservatives justices. Nothing changes the fact that Roe was not a huge political fulcrum until there was a massive push to turn it into a national issue from conservative oligarchs. It was incredibly politically savvy but anyone who acts like this decisions is anything but political gamesmanship has been hoodwinked by smarter and wealthier interests.
You keep saying it’s political like that’s a bad thing. The judiciary is a branch of government, so of course everything it does has political ramifications.
Political gamesmanship alone isn’t enough. There needs to be a critical mass of people sufficiently vested in that interest for it to be sustainable. It’s like saying we have so many guns because of NRA’s shrewd gamesmanship. Not really, there’s enough Americans who strongly care about freely owning guns whose backs NRA can ride. Likewise, there’s enough Americans who actually either see abortion as a sin against the sanctity of life or are sufficiently religious or conservative to be turned off by what they see as an increasingly decadent society. The fact that many of them are poor further makes them want to blame the “elite liberals” for it.
As for the polls about first trimester abortion, they don’t mean anything because the only polls that matter are at the voting booths and about half the country votes conservative when it matters.
I’m not saying a political decision is a bad thing. All I’m saying is that people who think this decision was made because it’s morally right reveal themselves as completely hoodwinked by propaganda from powerful political players. Anyone who fails to recognize this is basically admitting they’re just a pawn for monied interests, which, hey, be my guest. I personally think it’s a little “uncool” to openly brag that you are dull enough to froth about whatever the talking heads on [political news source] have chosen for you daily. But yeah, land of the free, go ahead.
I accounted for your response in that post. "It's rare so it's fine for rape victims to be forced to carry the baby." I've been very honest with what I believe. I'm just pointing out the worst parts of the decision so that others can see. You believe rape victims should have to carry their rapist's (there you go) baby to term. You do believe that, right? Why don't you be honest now.
I don't really care about your opinion.
That speaks volumes. Your body, your thoughts, your needs are meaningless to these "prolifers". Its so easy to force SOMEONE ELSE to carry an unwanted pregnancy, it no problem for OTHERS to tell that woman what she must do. Those telling her have no burden, no cost, it all on the woman. And they don'y even give a damn about her feelings or her situation. All that matters is what they think is right.
Oh what a relief! If I have a medical or emotional or financial issue, or if I have been raped and have an unwarranted pregnancy and am not sure what to do with this cluster of fertilized eggs, someone from the government, a Ted Cruz type will now make that decision for me.
I am so thankful that people like Ted Cruz, people who know nothing of me or my situation, will tell me what I have to do with my body.
Now we can all have the benefit of a Ted Cruz type stepping into our lives and making life decisions for us.
Don't we all trust the Ted Cruz types making these decisions for us more than our own ability.
(PS no one has told me when a cluster of cells becomes a full person, but I shouldn't make that decision myself for my body, Ted will tell me)
This. Pretty standard. Most people need powerful politicians to tell them how to feel about “important” issues. This leads to most of the conservative leaning posts in this thread.
That speaks volumes. Your body, your thoughts, your needs are meaningless to these "prolifers". Its so easy to force SOMEONE ELSE to carry an unwanted pregnancy, it no problem for OTHERS to tell that woman what she must do. Those telling her have no burden, no cost, it all on the woman. And they don'y even give a damn about her feelings or her situation. All that matters is what they think is right.
Killing innocent people is wrong no matter what your feelings are.