Debt ceiling must be raised by the first of March. Apparently Trump and friends are mulling over an idea to tie it to a border wall. Support of this comes from "moderate" and "reasonable" and "totally not as crazy as the others" Republican Lindsey Graham
Racket wrote:
Mr 19th Century wrote:
2) She doesn't like slavery. Well, I don't like it either. I would much rather that people not own other people, BUT what she wants is she wants legislation in place to prohibit people from owning blacks...a legal activity decided on already by the supreme court. Does this make her bad? No...just wrong in this case.
Because something is legal doesn’t mean it is right.
False equivalence.
No. It is not, Flagpole.
Flashback, 1983.
Some things never change in Trumpland.
President Trump Hired Undocumented Immigrants for $4 An Hour for Demolition Project: Court Docs
Trump faced a lawsuit in 1983 that claimed he knowingly employed more than 150 undocumented Polish workers to demolish the Bonwit building for Trump Tower. They were hired at $4 an hour to work 12-hour shifts, seven days a week and were not paid overtime, the lawsuit alleged. D'Antonio said the lawsuit also claimed the Kaszycki & Sons Contractors employees worked in poor conditions, slept in the building and were at times paid in vodka instead of money. Some were reportedly never paid at all. Trump denied the charges, saying he had no idea the workers were undocumented, Newsday reported in 1990. One year later, he faced a $1 million court judgment stemming from the case.
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-undocumented-immigrants-tower-demolish-724845
Fat hurts wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
1) If you support Hitler, are you a bad person? If you say yes to that, can I say to you what you just said to me? People give us reasons to support them or not...Trump has given all good reasonable people reasons to NOT.
Yes, many of those who supported Hitler were good people. Are you saying that the entire nation of Germany was made up of bad people? (resisters were few and far between)
Obviously, good people did not support extermination of the Jews. But according to the US Holocaust Museum:
Hitler and the Nazi leadership engineered a phony Polish attack on a German radio station to mask and justify their invasion of Poland.
To deflect criticism of its actions, Nazi Germany’s leadership accused the Allies and the “Jews” of spreading malicious lies and “atrocity stories.”
Nazi propagandists disguised the regime’s genocidal policies against Europe’s Jews, claiming that the Jewish population was being “resettled.”
In the same way, Individual-1 has convinced many Americans that there is a clear and present danger at our border. The danger is so terrible that it even justifies the theft of children in order to deter future "invaders".
You are not a bad person because you are fearful. You are not a bad person because you are wrong.
You may be a coward and you may be wrong. But that doesn't make you "bad".
Furthermore Flagpole, you will never convince anyone that you are right by dismissing that person as "bad" or "evil". We all have to recognize that we are flawed individuals in need of redemption.
Love and kindness will get you a lot further than hatred.
In order for this "debate" to have any meaning whatsoever, even at the most microscopic level, there needs to be an jointly accepted definition of "bad person". Without that, you might as well be debating whether or not support for Trump indicates that someone is "yojuntic".
Fat hurts wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
1) If you support Hitler, are you a bad person? If you say yes to that, can I say to you what you just said to me? People give us reasons to support them or not...Trump has given all good reasonable people reasons to NOT.
Yes, many of those who supported Hitler were good people. Are you saying that the entire nation of Germany was made up of bad people? (resisters were few and far between)
Obviously, good people did not support extermination of the Jews. But according to the US Holocaust Museum:
Hitler and the Nazi leadership engineered a phony Polish attack on a German radio station to mask and justify their invasion of Poland.
To deflect criticism of its actions, Nazi Germany’s leadership accused the Allies and the “Jews” of spreading malicious lies and “atrocity stories.”
Nazi propagandists disguised the regime’s genocidal policies against Europe’s Jews, claiming that the Jewish population was being “resettled.”
In the same way, Individual-1 has convinced many Americans that there is a clear and present danger at our border. The danger is so terrible that it even justifies the theft of children in order to deter future "invaders".
You are not a bad person because you are fearful. You are not a bad person because you are wrong.
You may be a coward and you may be wrong. But that doesn't make you "bad".
Furthermore Flagpole, you will never convince anyone that you are right by dismissing that person as "bad" or "evil". We all have to recognize that we are flawed individuals in need of redemption.
Love and kindness will get you a lot further than hatred.
1) Anyone who actively supported Hitler, and not just because they were fearful for their life, yes, they were bad people. We do not have the same situation today. Backers of Trump are not fearful for their lives if they don't back him.
2) We have no such elaborate disinformation scheme as was present during Nazi Germany. We have 24/7 news. We have access to many differing points of view. We have solid proof that Trump lies constantly. People who are deciding to believe him that we have a clear and present danger on the southern border AT THIS POINT are doing so because they want to believe in the racist idea...they want to keep brown people out. This makes them bad people.
3) I am not trying to convince anyone that I am right. I am right about people who support Trump AT THIS POINT. You are allowed to be wrong, and I have said several times now that we will just have to disagree on this point.
4) By calling Trump supporters bad, that isn't dismissing them, that is labeling them. Bad people aren't to be dismissed as we need to be protected from them. Have to call them out for what they are so that they are NOT being dismissed. It is dismissive to NOT say they are bad people.
5) I agree that we are all flawed. This doesn't excuse Trump supporters, and it is the kind of excuse that is used to justify any bad behavior...doesn't fly.
6) I agree that love and kindness gets you a lot further than hatred. Straw man argument here and doesn't apply. By calling them bad people (and they are), that doesn't mean I hate them. I never said anything about hating them...they just are bad people.
it's 1983, again wrote:
Flashback, 1983.
Some things never change in Trumpland.
President Trump Hired Undocumented Immigrants for $4 An Hour for Demolition Project: Court Docs
Trump faced a lawsuit in 1983 that claimed he knowingly employed more than 150 undocumented Polish workers to demolish the Bonwit building for Trump Tower. They were hired at $4 an hour to work 12-hour shifts, seven days a week and were not paid overtime, the lawsuit alleged. D'Antonio said the lawsuit also claimed the Kaszycki & Sons Contractors employees worked in poor conditions, slept in the building and were at times paid in vodka instead of money. Some were reportedly never paid at all. Trump denied the charges, saying he had no idea the workers were undocumented, Newsday reported in 1990. One year later, he faced a $1 million court judgment stemming from the case.
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-undocumented-immigrants-tower-demolish-724845
but no transgenders in the bathrooms, so we're cool with that
The Fonzi wrote:
Rigged for Hillary wrote:
You have many issues here. You do not get along with your trailer park neighbors. You are a narcissist- who can't wait to brag about your stupid arms at least once a week.
You are blinded by your own bias and are incapable to acknowledge it. You are close-minded & intolerant of others who do not share your beliefs. This thread has become all about your oversized ego and lame attempt to convince all of LR that you alone can make a valid point of view. Your sense of reality is seriously warped and even a few libs here are beginning to call you out. Fat hurts is right about that incredibly silly statement you made about Christians- it was foolish.
Seek help.
Mueller never
Clownpole forever
I think Rigged is an annoying troll and o don’t think I’ve ever agreed with him
HOWEVER, this post from him is right on the mark.
With this last stance, Flagpole has jumped the shark.
It was a good run, Flag. But it’s over.
INCORRECT!
Flagpole wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
Yes, many of those who supported Hitler were good people. Are you saying that the entire nation of Germany was made up of bad people? (resisters were few and far between)
Obviously, good people did not support extermination of the Jews. But according to the US Holocaust Museum:
In the same way, Individual-1 has convinced many Americans that there is a clear and present danger at our border. The danger is so terrible that it even justifies the theft of children in order to deter future "invaders".
You are not a bad person because you are fearful. You are not a bad person because you are wrong.
You may be a coward and you may be wrong. But that doesn't make you "bad".
Furthermore Flagpole, you will never convince anyone that you are right by dismissing that person as "bad" or "evil". We all have to recognize that we are flawed individuals in need of redemption.
Love and kindness will get you a lot further than hatred.
1) Anyone who actively supported Hitler, and not just because they were fearful for their life, yes, they were bad people. We do not have the same situation today. Backers of Trump are not fearful for their lives if they don't back him.
2) We have no such elaborate disinformation scheme as was present during Nazi Germany. We have 24/7 news. We have access to many differing points of view. We have solid proof that Trump lies constantly. People who are deciding to believe him that we have a clear and present danger on the southern border AT THIS POINT are doing so because they want to believe in the racist idea...they want to keep brown people out. This makes them bad people.
3) I am not trying to convince anyone that I am right. I am right about people who support Trump AT THIS POINT. You are allowed to be wrong, and I have said several times now that we will just have to disagree on this point.
4) By calling Trump supporters bad, that isn't dismissing them, that is labeling them. Bad people aren't to be dismissed as we need to be protected from them. Have to call them out for what they are so that they are NOT being dismissed. It is dismissive to NOT say they are bad people.
5) I agree that we are all flawed. This doesn't excuse Trump supporters, and it is the kind of excuse that is used to justify any bad behavior...doesn't fly.
6) I agree that love and kindness gets you a lot further than hatred. Straw man argument here and doesn't apply. By calling them bad people (and they are), that doesn't mean I hate them. I never said anything about hating them...they just are bad people.
1) People who disagreed with the Nazis were did not fear for their lives. Even soldiers who refused to participate in killing the Jews were merely reassigned.
2) We have disinformation today that is even more sophisticated than what they had in Germany. If you get all your news from Fox and from your Facebook feed then you have a very distorted view of the world.
3) If you are not trying to convince anyone then why are you sharing your views? We live in a democracy and it depends on persuasion.
4) Calling them "bad" is about as dismissive as you can get.
5) It's not an excuse, it's a reality. And you need to be humble enough to recognize that "all are flawed" means Fat hurts and Flagpole are flawed. You are no better than a Trumper. Being right about politics doesn't make you a better person.
6) You sound exactly like a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists are so fond of saying "Hate the sin but love the sinner". Trust me, fundamentalists don't love gay people any more than you love Trumpers. Fundamentalists think gay person equals bad person. You think Trumper equals bad person. Both of you are wrong.
Hannity/Fox News are upset at the big production arrest of Roger Stone for the petty crime of lying to Congress.
Of course there is the what about so and so who lied and wasn't charged talk.
I don't know why the big show arrest but Mueller is not happy about Stone's blatant lies and lack of cooperation.
Tell the truth or be arrested is the motif here.
What we have is a slew of Trump associates who are hiding things from the investigation and all have been caught presenting false testimony.
They are being divided into two groups: those that cooperate and those that don't.
And Mueller has held tight the details of those that have cooperated. The others will serve harsher sentencing.
But none of this has been finalized, including Manafort and Flynn.
That is a lot of info that could be dropped on the public all at once.
So you could have a sudden change in the whole situation.
Mr. 19th Century wrote:
Racket wrote:
False equivalence.
No. It is not, Flagpole.
It is, but I'm sure one of your idiot friends used your above argument and it totally amazed you. That is because you are a simpleton and rather easy to predict.
Also, I'm not Flagpole. He has a mere Master's degree while I hold a PhD.
Fat hurts wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
1) Anyone who actively supported Hitler, and not just because they were fearful for their life, yes, they were bad people. We do not have the same situation today. Backers of Trump are not fearful for their lives if they don't back him.
2) We have no such elaborate disinformation scheme as was present during Nazi Germany. We have 24/7 news. We have access to many differing points of view. We have solid proof that Trump lies constantly. People who are deciding to believe him that we have a clear and present danger on the southern border AT THIS POINT are doing so because they want to believe in the racist idea...they want to keep brown people out. This makes them bad people.
3) I am not trying to convince anyone that I am right. I am right about people who support Trump AT THIS POINT. You are allowed to be wrong, and I have said several times now that we will just have to disagree on this point.
4) By calling Trump supporters bad, that isn't dismissing them, that is labeling them. Bad people aren't to be dismissed as we need to be protected from them. Have to call them out for what they are so that they are NOT being dismissed. It is dismissive to NOT say they are bad people.
5) I agree that we are all flawed. This doesn't excuse Trump supporters, and it is the kind of excuse that is used to justify any bad behavior...doesn't fly.
6) I agree that love and kindness gets you a lot further than hatred. Straw man argument here and doesn't apply. By calling them bad people (and they are), that doesn't mean I hate them. I never said anything about hating them...they just are bad people.
1) People who disagreed with the Nazis were did not fear for their lives. Even soldiers who refused to participate in killing the Jews were merely reassigned.
2) We have disinformation today that is even more sophisticated than what they had in Germany. If you get all your news from Fox and from your Facebook feed then you have a very distorted view of the world.
3) If you are not trying to convince anyone then why are you sharing your views? We live in a democracy and it depends on persuasion.
4) Calling them "bad" is about as dismissive as you can get.
5) It's not an excuse, it's a reality. And you need to be humble enough to recognize that "all are flawed" means Fat hurts and Flagpole are flawed. You are no better than a Trumper. Being right about politics doesn't make you a better person.
6) You sound exactly like a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists are so fond of saying "Hate the sin but love the sinner". Trust me, fundamentalists don't love gay people any more than you love Trumpers. Fundamentalists think gay person equals bad person. You think Trumper equals bad person. Both of you are wrong.
1) There were people who feared for their lives if they disagreed with the Nazis. I didn't say that ALL those who disagreed with them feared for their lives. I am giving an out for those who had a reasonable fear.
2) Again, getting all your news from Fox and Facebook is a choice and does not excuse supporting Trump.
3) Sharing for the sake of sharing. Discussion is fun...doesn't have to have any persuasion attached to it, and it doesn't for me.
4) Again, I appropriately refuted this assertion of yours. It is dismissive to NOT call them bad people...that is what excuses their behavior. I know that's not how you mean this...you mean that I am not taking into account their concerns by calling them "bad" people. Not true. They have concerns and they have fears...all based on them being bad people at this point, and I take them VERY seriously. They have the power to destroy our nation and proper values.
5) Of course all people are flawed, including me. This doesn't mean I can't look at someone and judge their behavior. How could the justice system work if we can't look at someone and judge their behavior? That I am a flawed person doesn't absolve Trump supporters from being bad people...and they are.
6) Fundamentalists hate the sin. I am not hating anything here. Hate is a very strong word, and I am not applying that to the Trumpers in any way. They are bad people...doesn't mean I hate them or their actions. Also, not the same thing at all. Gay people are born that way. People who support Trump have a choice about whether they support him or not, and that support can ebb and flow based on new information about him. We have more than enough evidence today that shows that Donald Trump is one of the most morally bankrupt politicians we have ever had in this country, and to support him in any way shows that that person a bad person.
Again, as I have said several times now, we will have to disagree. You keep trying to persuade me though...it won't work. I'm fine with it if we disagree. I never have a need to have others agree with me, but I will clearly state my opinion.
it's 1983, again wrote:
Flashback, 1983.
Some things never change in Trumpland.
President Trump Hired Undocumented Immigrants for $4 An Hour for Demolition Project: Court Docs
Trump faced a lawsuit in 1983 that claimed he knowingly employed more than 150 undocumented Polish workers to demolish the Bonwit building for Trump Tower. They were hired at $4 an hour to work 12-hour shifts, seven days a week and were not paid overtime, the lawsuit alleged. D'Antonio said the lawsuit also claimed the Kaszycki & Sons Contractors employees worked in poor conditions, slept in the building and were at times paid in vodka instead of money. Some were reportedly never paid at all. Trump denied the charges, saying he had no idea the workers were undocumented, Newsday reported in 1990. One year later, he faced a $1 million court judgment stemming from the case.
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-undocumented-immigrants-tower-demolish-724845
I didn't read the document, but just to be clear, minimum wage was $3.35 an hour in 1983.
Racket wrote:
Mr. 19th Century wrote:
No. It is not, Flagpole.
It is, but I'm sure one of your idiot friends used your above argument and it totally amazed you. That is because you are a simpleton and rather easy to predict.
Also, I'm not Flagpole. He has a mere Master's degree while I hold a PhD.
Howdy, Flagpole.
it's 1983, again wrote:
Flashback, 1983.
Some things never change in Trumpland.
President Trump Hired Undocumented Immigrants for $4 An Hour for Demolition Project: Court Docs
Trump faced a lawsuit in 1983 that claimed he knowingly employed more than 150 undocumented Polish workers to demolish the Bonwit building for Trump Tower. They were hired at $4 an hour to work 12-hour shifts, seven days a week and were not paid overtime, the lawsuit alleged. D'Antonio said the lawsuit also claimed the Kaszycki & Sons Contractors employees worked in poor conditions, slept in the building and were at times paid in vodka instead of money. Some were reportedly never paid at all. Trump denied the charges, saying he had no idea the workers were undocumented, Newsday reported in 1990. One year later, he faced a $1 million court judgment stemming from the case.
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-undocumented-immigrants-tower-demolish-724845
As someone who worked on construction crews in my youth, I can honestly say that:
1) I worked for less than $4/hr at times.
2) I worked 12+ hour shifts for 7 day week
3) I did not receive overtime.
4) I worked in poor conditions. It's freaking construction grunt work. Snow, rain, cold wave, heat wave...all sh!tty conditions. Your supervisor/foreman cursing at you 24/7.
5) Spent the night at worksites to save money on travel costs.
6) Never paid in vodka, but when the company couldn't make payroll, I was paid in other forms (food and building supplies).
Not saying these guys weren't treated badly, but if you haven't worked a blue collar job, you may not fully comprehend the job.
"So Far, List of Suspect Voters in Texas Turns Out to Be Mostly a List of U.S. Citizens"
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/29/us/texas-voter-citizenship-list.html
L L wrote:
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/sean-hannity-if-roger-stones-arrest-is-a-sign-of-things-to-come-youve-lost-your-country-its-over-say-goodbyeHannity/Fox News are upset at the big production arrest of Roger Stone for the petty crime of lying to Congress.
Of course there is the what about so and so who lied and wasn't charged talk.
I don't know why the big show arrest but Mueller is not happy about Stone's blatant lies and lack of cooperation.
Tell the truth or be arrested is the motif here.
What we have is a slew of Trump associates who are hiding things from the investigation and all have been caught presenting false testimony.
They are being divided into two groups: those that cooperate and those that don't.
And Mueller has held tight the details of those that have cooperated. The others will serve harsher sentencing.
But none of this has been finalized, including Manafort and Flynn.
That is a lot of info that could be dropped on the public all at once.
So you could have a sudden change in the whole situation.
Interesting to see Foxtrumpkins complaining about excessive use of force. Isn't their go-to something like, "Well, if they would just obey the law!"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9dGN1AY1noRacket wrote:
It is, but I'm sure one of your idiot friends used your above argument and it totally amazed you. That is because you are a simpleton and rather easy to predict.
Also, I'm not Flagpole. He has a mere Master's degree while I hold a PhD.
Wow, did you really just post that? Do you think that impresses people? Or are you aware that it just makes them think that you are just as big of a douche bag as Flagpole?
NYTimes wrote:
"So Far, List of Suspect Voters in Texas Turns Out to Be Mostly a List of U.S. Citizens"
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/29/us/texas-voter-citizenship-list.html
Yup. As I pointed out earlier:
The methodology used to determine the 95,000 "non-citizens" registered and 58,000 "non-citizen" voters is a bit suspect.
Cliff Notes version:
They checked voter records against driver's license records. If someone used non-citizen documents to apply for a driver's license they are being tagged as non-citizens in voter registration records. The problem, of course, is that individuals who are Texas residents but not US citizens at the time of their application for a driver's license can and do change their citizenship status. Further, there is no requirement and no reason at all to notify the department of motor vehicles about said change. Therefore, there are LOTS of US citizens who used non-citizen documents to apply for their driver's license.
To provide some idea about the magnitude of the problem with this "study", about 50,000 Texas residents become naturalized citizens each year. Over the period of the study (1996 - 2016?) that would be about 1,000,000 Texas residents who have become naturalized US citizens. With this, it is actually surprising that they found only 95,000 discrepancies between driver's license records and voter citizenship status.
In terms of verified instances of non-citizens registering to vote the numbers are slightly different than the 95,000. 97 people in total were prosecuted for voter fraud (of all kinds) during the 13 year period ending in 2017. That is an average of 7 - 8 cases per year. It is not clear how many of those 7 per year were related to non-citizenship status but it seems likely that it is somewhat less than 95,000. ;-)"
Flagpole wrote:
TTH wrote:
Co-worker to my wife prior to the '16 election. "I'm voting for Trump because I don't like the gays and I don't like abortion". She's an avowed Christian.
I doubt this has changed. She and those who believe along similar lines do not care about the potential criminal aspect of Trump. They care about their Bible beliefs being stood for and that is with the Republican party.
1) She doesn't like gays. Well, makes her a bad person to not like someone based on whom they love. "If you don't want to put your penis in a vagina, then I don't like you." Ridiculous stance...and it makes her a bad person.
2) She doesn't like abortion. Well, I don't like it either. I would much rather that people put up unwanted babies for adoption, BUT what she wants is she wants legislation in place to prohibit women from choosing an abortion...a legal activity decided on already by the supreme court. Does this make her bad? No...just wrong in this case.
It makes both of you judgemental fvcks
Flagpole wrote:
Papa Doc Duvalier/Baby Doc Duvalier wrote:
I typed about 250 words. Obviously by your tone do not like the post above. Do not tell me to look up Obama. You make your own points here on letsrun. You do not like my post but you can do no better than to refer to me as inaccurate and ignorant. The gist of the post was about K. Harris. Obama is done. Let us know on letsrun why you do not like what I had to say about Harris.
You don't know if I like or not what you wrote about Harris, because I didn't comment on it, so don't go making assumptions. And, I will comment on any part of a person's post that I choose. Capisce?
Such microaggression.