Olympic Marathon Silver Medalist Eunice Kirwa Busted for EPO Doping

I don't dismiss any of this evidence. These are good starting points. I don't jump to conclusions either. I don't apologize for doping. Getting caught for doping, and being justly punished, is independent of my own ideas about performance. You are not using a correction definition of doping apologist.

full of it wrote:

You've been given an abundant number of examples in distance running. People who set world records.

People who won olympic medals. People who set european records. People who improved from fast recreational runners to Olympic qualifiers and record setters. People who set masters records. People who confessed and said that EPO helped them immensely. You dismiss all of them too.

Please give us a break with the idea that you are open to persuasion. This is why you are a doping apologist. You dismiss all evidence. Nobody should be under the illusion that they are able to "make progress" with you or that this is a worthwhile goal.

And yet Russia did not outperform Japan, a nation not known for doping, both in terms of QUALITY and QUANTITY.

I like Vodka wrote:

Sure...try Liliya Shobukhova:

So, try again rekrunner. Lol.

They all count, for what it's worth.

life goes on wrote:

Reckie is hilarious. Now that Cleans, Clerk and Casual have given up, he is trolling Armstrong. Armstrong!

Alas, it's pointless. Scientists don't count, because they are not elite performance experts, the dopers, with their doctors and coaches and managers don't count, because they are either mid-distance, female, or walkers or, gasp!, bikers.

Now the half marathon stopped counting too, or was that an invalid case in point? Hard to keep up with reckies excuses. Lean back and enjoy!

It should still be understandable today. Lagat was faster. Was Kiprop's 3:26.69 doped? It was not annulled. Usually the IAAF annuls earlier performance if they can. Kiptum isn't much different than Kisorio. And they are both nowhere in the more competitive 10K and marathon. The blood doper sharing the same coach trained in a different camp than the coach and the marathon runner. The suspicion around Radcliffe was universally dismissed by all of the respective anti-doping agencies, in large part due to the body of research by anti-doping scientists like Ashenden and Parisotto, and Schumacher. Eventually it was dismissed by the British tabloids, after the WADA IC reports were published. I don't doubt some successful runners also doped. This is confirmation of widespread use, practice, and belief.

cute but not cute enough wrote:

Until a couple of years ago, your skepticism may have been understandable.

But now, we know that

Kenya's fastest male

- 1500 m runner (fastest worldwide in this decade!) used blood doping

- half marathon runner (WR holder!!) used blood doping

- marathon runner (WR by a huge margin!!!) shares the coach with another Kenyan blood doper

And the female marathon, starting with Radcliffe and Shobukhova, and now including with Jeptoo, Sumgong and Kirwa has a particularly shameful history with blood doping.

Lots of successful blood doping in distance running, no question about it.

life goes on wrote:

Reckie is hilarious. Now that Cleans, Clerk and Casual have given up, he is trolling Armstrong. Armstrong!

Where is Casual Observer? He hasn't been banned too has he? I can understand why the Brojos banned Mindweak for threatening Canova and rekrunner, but surely not Casual?

Banned by rekrunner for correcting him too often?

rekrunner wrote:

Kiptum isn't much different than Kisorio. And they are both nowhere in the more competitive 10K and marathon.

So, you're undermining the fact that a WR record holder is busted for doping because he's "nowhere in the more competitive 10K and marathon?" Newsflash: the guy has a 2:05 marathon PB! Are you implying that the HM WR record is meaningless though Kenyan Athletics was bragging on it when Kiptum set it.

You really need to listen to what you say about these Kenyans getting busted. And you wonder why some people think you're a "doping apologist." Lol.

I find it repugnant that another top Kenyan is busted for doping...a WR holder to boot! And I don't give a rat's ass that Kiptum is nowhere in the more competitive 10K or whatever BS you come up -- it's a total disgrace that another top performing Kenyan is busted!

Can't Believe What I'm Hearing wrote:

So, you're undermining the fact that a WR record holder is busted for doping because he's "nowhere in the more competitive 10K and marathon?" Newsflash: the guy has a 2:05 marathon PB! Are you implying that the HM WR record is meaningless though Kenyan Athletics was bragging on it when Kiptum set it.

You really need to listen to what you say about these Kenyans getting busted. And you wonder why some people think you're a "doping apologist." Lol.

I find it repugnant that another top Kenyan is busted for doping...a WR holder to boot! And I don't give a rat's ass that Kiptum is nowhere in the more competitive 10K or whatever BS you come up -- it's a total disgrace that another top performing Kenyan is busted!

Rekrunner won’t change his mind, even after seeing science papers showing that EPO improves performance, and world-record holders and Olympic medalists getting busted for it. EPO is called a performance enhancing drug because that’s what it does- enhances performance. If it didn’t work, then so many top athletes wouldn’t use it. And since drug tests only catches 10% of cheaters, I think the problem runs far greater than the recent drug busts we’re seeing.

I also find it repugnant that another top Kenyan is busted for doping...a WR holder to boot! Yet this bust brings nothing new to a conversation about performance -- we already had Kisorio running similar times.

Can't Believe What I'm Hearing wrote:

So, you're undermining the fact that a WR record holder is busted for doping because he's "nowhere in the more competitive 10K and marathon?" Newsflash: the guy has a 2:05 marathon PB! Are you implying that the HM WR record is meaningless though Kenyan Athletics was bragging on it when Kiptum set it.

You really need to listen to what you say about these Kenyans getting busted. And you wonder why some people think you're a "doping apologist." Lol.

I find it repugnant that another top Kenyan is busted for doping...a WR holder to boot! And I don't give a rat's ass that Kiptum is nowhere in the more competitive 10K or whatever BS you come up -- it's a total disgrace that another top performing Kenyan is busted!

I would change my mind if the arguments and evidence were stronger. The fact that some attempt to include baseball and tennis and cycling and racewalking and sprinting and women on steroids only confirms that the subject cannot stand on its own. I think I've been pretty forthcoming and detailed why the totality of all the EPO studies combined with the abundant examples of drug busts, even WORLD and OLYMPIC champions, fall short of allowing me to draw the many conclusions that repeatedly appear here. I don't DISMISS any of this EVIDENCE, but say that the gaps in the EVIDENCE are filled in with speculation, hypothesis, belief, projection, and extrapolation. Yet the same small band of posters keep bringing the same arguments, with the same gaps, that failed before, every time there is a new "example". Here's an example of what it would take to change my mind. Take this Kenyan study that keeps coming around, that seems to have been published 2 or 3 times. The caliber of the Kenyans mean they were capable (based on scientific predictions) of 7:50 time trials. In the study, they improved from 9:00 to 8:40. Their RPE measured in the study confirms they weren't even trying to race. This has ZERO applicability to what happens in real world elite performances, despite the KENYAN participants being of fairly high caliber, and yet it keeps coming back. No one needs EPO to improve a 9 minute time trial from marathon to half-marathon pace. What I would have found way more compelling, is if they had first brought these athletes up to their 7:50 potential, predicted by their proven ability, BEFORE starting the EPO intervention. This is similar to what Stray-Gundersen did when they had 6-weeks or pre-intervention sea-level training control phase, before going to altitude. This helps separate any gains that would have come just from training for 6 weeks, from the gains due to EPO. Would we still see "RENATO IS WRONG AND EPO HELPS KENYANS 5%" headlines (5% is 23 seconds or 7:27), or would it be closer to 1% (4.7 seconds or 7:45)? Since this was not done, the whole exercise was a complete WASTE of time for everyone involved, and we are not one step closer to deciding what would happen with elite runners already capable of elite performances.

LoneStarXC wrote:

Rekrunner won’t change his mind, even after seeing science papers showing that EPO improves performance, and world-record holders and Olympic medalists getting busted for it. EPO is called a performance enhancing drug because that’s what it does- enhances performance. If it didn’t work, then so many top athletes wouldn’t use it. And since drug tests only catches 10% of cheaters, I think the problem runs far greater than the recent drug busts we’re seeing.

If WADA is really interested in a research for studying effects of training and effects of EPO, with elite athletes and top training system, it's possible to have some correct data, working with a budget of about 100,000 USD, because we need to involve professional athletes who can't earn any money during the period of research.

This is the way we can act :

a) We look at Kenyan National Championships of 10,000m in 2020. We select the athletes finishing the tace in positions 7-12, who are "elite", but not involved in competitions of very high level.

b) We offer, to these 6 athletes, a contract of 10,000 USD each one (arguably about the money they could earn with some road race during the same period), with the agreement that they CAN'T compete during 3 months (the duration of the research) from the start of the experiment.

c) Some WADA scientist can control the research, administrating with 3 of them EPO (according to a protocol they think the best in order to increase the performances), and with the other 3 a placebo.

d) All the 6 athletes must live in a training camp, under the direct control of one coach used to work with the best athletes.

e) The coach, of course, doesn't know who takes EPO and who is clean. He has to coach the athletes looking at their training, that can/must be on INDIVIDUAL basis.

f) After 3 months (not one month...) of training (with or without EPO), the athletes go to run IN COMPETITION one raceof 10000m on track at sea level, with a money prize that can be interesting, in order to ask everybody his mox effort for running at his best. We can also to find some pacer, and in any case the competition must be official.

g) The athletes don't know who of them is doped, and who is clean. The doped athletes must have a specific authorization from IAAF for the research, so after the race ALL the athletes participating to the research have to follow the normal antidoping procedure, and the doped athletes don't face any sanction for their future activity.

h) If we want to investigate in better way, every 2-3 weeks (during all the research) all the athletes can have a test based on the normal antidoping rules, with results than can be known only after the end of the total period. In this case we can also see the different evolution (if there is...) between clean athletes and doped athletes, about the parameters normally considered as CAUSE of the performances (Hb, Hct, MCV, retycolocytes, off-score, etc...).

g) At the end, we can see IF the athletes had some improvement from their results in National Championships, IF the percentage of improvement is different among the doped group and the clean group, and if the physiological values change in the same direction with the group looking at training only, and with the doped group.

I put myself at disposal, for free, for coaching the athletes, that have to stay in a camp, with me, for these 3 following months.

I already know what the final results will be...... and I'm sure could be a big surprise for everybody (WADA included).

rekrunner wrote:

And yet Russia did not outperform Japan, a nation not known for doping, both in terms of QUALITY and QUANTITY.

Didn't you read and understand the WADA independent commission report (#1) that I posted on Shobukhova? The abnormal profile from her ABP data on her 2:18:20 achieved at Chicago was "likely the result of the use of a prohibited substance or method, specifically blood manipulation with “massive use of erythropoietin” associated with an autologous blood transfusion." Shobukhova's annulled doped time is almost a minute faster than Japan's fastest (Noguchi/2:19:12).

Do you think Shobukhova could have achieved that time as well win three Chicago's and London clean?

rekrunner wrote:

And for the longer distances, I reject your characterization that "the question is not whether they work but by how much".

I think the question of whether any drugs are effective for distance runners at their very top is still unsettled.

"Unsettled?" Not from the standpoint of IAAF anti-doping experts reviewing ABP cases.

How about the conclusions of three (3) of the top IAAF anti-doping experts? I take it you never read the Yuliya Zaripova CAS hearing?

Quick background: Zaripova was a Russian SC athlete (9:05.02) who won gold at both the WC at Daegu and the London Olympics. Hematological anomalies were detected in her ABP data and the medals were a stripped along with her PB annulled. Quite a blow to the Russians since the primary objective of their State-sponsored doping program is to win Olympic & WC medals.

CAS 2015/A/4006

Paragraph 49 (i):

49. The contents of the declarations of the experts can be summarised as follows.

"i. Professor Schumacher confirmed the opinion expressed in the Initial Review and in the Joint Expert Report and explained that EPO increases an athlete’s maximal oxygen uptake (the “VO2max”) by 1% to 4% for a period of up to 4 weeks after the erythropoiesis stimulation, depending on the dosage of its administration, and confirmed that the use of micro-doses over a longer period can produce long-lasting effects. At the same time, Professor Schumacher indicated that manipulation is possible to rapidly and significantly decrease the HGB values, by infusing plasma expander. Without manipulation, HGB values drop 6 to 10 days after the end of the stimulation phase. Professor Schumacher, then examined the Athlete’s ABP indicating, inter alia, that also samples 1 and 2 are not normal and that sample 6 shows a pattern of prolonged stimulation (in light of its values, inconsistent with a single administration), with sample 7, marked by a drop in RET%, marks a “suppression” phase. In the same way, according to Professor Schumacher, the sequence shown by the Athlete’s blood values mentioned by Mr Scott in his opinion is not normal."

Paragraph 50:

"3. If the answer to question 2 in relation to sample 6 is ‘yes’, do you consider

that her blood doping out-of-competition on 20 July 2011 is likely to have

assisted her training for or affected her performances in the subsequent

competitions in which she participated at the World Championships on 30

August 2011 and in the Diamond League on 16 September 2011?"

"VO2max is the maximal oxygen transport capacity, a measure of maximal endurance performance and the key physiological measure that is modified by EPO administration or blood transfusion through the increase of red blood cell mass. In the literature, several studies report the effect of EPO treatment on VO2max several weeks after cessation of treatment …: … the increase in VO2max is still significant 3 weeks after treatment. … the improvement is still significant 4 weeks after treatment… the increase in VO2max per gram of increase in haemoglobin concentration is 20 ml of O2 per gram increase in Haemoglobin and that the results are similar to those observed after the transfusion of red blood cells. These findings were confirmed …. In summary, the effect of blood manipulation on VO2max, depends on the relative increase of haemoglobin concentration. Relating these facts to the profile, it is obvious that the athlete was training with the beneficial effects of an increased red cell mass and thus a higher VO2max in the lead up to the competitions in August and September 2011: Sample 6 clearly displayed a stimulated erythropoiesis (see previous paragraph and our initial review), meaning that red cell mass was increasing already. An increased red cell mass will have allowed her higher running speeds in training and thus greater training stimuli. Previous research has also shown that the effects of performance enhancing substances might influence the ability of the body to respond to new training impulses long after the use of such substances …. Although the impact of EPO on the ability to cope with training has not been scientifically examined until present, the available body of literature … on non haematological action of EPO underlines the high likelihood for a positive contribution”.

"In other words, the Appellant underlines that “it is the unanimous opinion of the IAAF experts in this regard that it is highly likely that Ms Zaripova’s blood doping on 20 July 2011 assisted her training for and participation in both the World Championships in Daegu on 26 August 2011 … and the Diamond League meeting in Brussels on 16 September 2011”.

Here's the link:

https://jurisprudence.tas-cas.org/Shared%20Documents/4006.pdf

Renato Canova wrote:

If WADA is really interested in a research for studying effects of training and effects of EPO, with elite athletes and top training system, it's possible...

I put myself at disposal...for these 3 following months.

I already know what the final results will be...

BECAUSE THAT MAKES FOR AN UNBIASED STUDY

??????????

I did read and understand the WADA IC Report #1. I do not doubt Shobukhova's abnormal profile was due to massive use of EPO. Unfortunately, even science hasn't looked at EPO benefit for the marathon, neither for elites, nor amateurs, so any expressed opinion about what she could do clean is one with absolutely no scientific backing. All we have for the marathon are examples. As you must know, we cannot prove anything with one example (or 2 or even 5). When you provide only one example, we cannot know if Shobukhova's performance is an exception, or the rule. Russia doped 1000 athletes, not just 1. If EPO works for marathon women, as a general rule, it should also be repeatable. Did you read my description of QUANTITY and QUALITY? For quantity, I counted the number of athletes in the top-95, as of Jan-2018. For quality, I averaged the top-5, looking for depth of quality, and averaging to reduce the effect of any exceptional outliers. I noticed Japan's #1, #2, and #3 are faster than Russia's #2, by more than 1 minute. And Japan's top-5 average is still faster than Russia's #2. Russia's #2 is nearly 2:30 slower than Shobukhova. Quantity: Japan 11; Russia 6 -- Japan is nearly the double of Russia Quality: Japan 2:20:24; Russia 2:20:53 -- Japan's top-5 is on average nearly 30 seconds faster than Russia's top-5 Cross Country scoring: Japan 26; Russia 31 Did Russia only dope 1 female marathoner? Nope. Mariya Konovalova (#6) also DQ'd and only achieved 2:22:27.

I like Vodka wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

And yet Russia did not outperform Japan, a nation not known for doping, both in terms of QUALITY and QUANTITY.

Didn't you read and understand the WADA independent commission report (#1) that I posted on Shobukhova? The abnormal profile from her ABP data on her 2:18:20 achieved at Chicago was "likely the result of the use of a prohibited substance or method, specifically blood manipulation with “massive use of erythropoietin” associated with an autologous blood transfusion." Shobukhova's annulled doped time is almost a minute faster than Japan's fastest (Noguchi/2:19:12).

Do you think Shobukhova could have achieved that time as well win three Chicago's and London clean?

The anti-doping experts, even through statements in a CAS hearing, don't really settle the question for the longer distance events. Yuliya Zaripova is a specialist in the shorter distance events, and I talked about the longer distance events. In the shorter distance events, steroids can also be a big factor. Russians were taking steroid cocktails. They don't specify Yuliya's clean times in the CAS hearing. Most of what you highlighted talks about VO2max, and red blood cell mass, which is not running performance. They do talk about higher speeds in training, but then say " the impact of EPO on the ability to cope with training has not been scientifically examined until present", pointing instead to non-haematological benefits. I don't disagree with the anti-doping experts, but with your implication that these statements in a CAS hearing to support an opinion of potential benefit are relevant to the topic here.

Passport Era Doping wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

And for the longer distances, I reject your characterization that "the question is not whether they work but by how much".

I think the question of whether any drugs are effective for distance runners at their very top is still unsettled.

"Unsettled?" Not from the standpoint of IAAF anti-doping experts reviewing ABP cases.

How about the conclusions of three (3) of the top IAAF anti-doping experts? I take it you never read the Yuliya Zaripova CAS hearing?

Sprintgeezer wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

If WADA is really interested in a research for studying effects of training and effects of EPO, with elite athletes and top training system, it's possible...

I put myself at disposal...for these 3 following months.

I already know what the final results will be...

BECAUSE THAT MAKES FOR AN UNBIASED STUDY

??????????

Yes. Because Renato wouldn't know who had received EPO and because it wouldn't be Renato to test the athletes.

You're right wrote:

life goes on wrote:

Reckie is hilarious. Now that Cleans, Clerk and Casual have given up, he is trolling Armstrong. Armstrong!

Where is Casual Observer? He hasn't been banned too has he? I can understand why the Brojos banned Mindweak for threatening Canova and rekrunner, but surely not Casual?

dear lord, for the last f*cking time i have never threatened them....someone started that rummer and then coevett got butt hurt and started it up again.....let me tell YOU something...I HAVE BEEN THREATENED! some guy from florida said he was going to come to colorado and put me in the hospital, and random handles who i believe was coevett, threatened to beat my a$$ like he did to people in an alley with his MMA skills (coevett has made this brag lots of times so thats why i figured it was him as a random handle)

but come on man for the last time enough with this lie....i never threatened them, mocked yes, argued yes, but threats? NO for the last time NO....and who knows is casual is banned, wouldnt surprise me....if you argue with rek and canova and have lots of facts and prove them to look foolish two things happen....

1- your comments get deleted

2- you get banned

and yes both can happen

- the poster formally known as m!ndweak