Beth Sullivan making headlines at UT

TNrunnah wrote:

Seems like everyone is more upset with the "how" than the "what", which means this has boiled down to just emotion, not facts and logic.

I think giving a 400m IH a full scholarship isn't exactly a judicious use of scholarship money. I guess that shows how flush women's teams are with cash.

You can't have buyers remorse when dealing with peoples lives and futures.

Not even Chip Kelly is as cold and calculating as BAS. And at least Chip is dealing with guys making millions.

Didn't know the part about the alumni getting JJ Clark fired. I hate when alumni think they are entitled to having a say in the direction of a college athletic team.

Positive Contribution wrote:

Not even Chip Kelly is as cold and calculating as BAS. And at least Chip is dealing with guys making millions.

Didn't know the part about the alumni getting JJ Clark fired. I hate when alumni think they are entitled to having a say in the direction of a college athletic team.

They aren't entitled to anything, but where do you think most XC and track programs get money from? The football alumni?

TNrunnah wrote:

You're too into the emotion of this, so let's play reverse.

If a coach cuts a kid for a reason you consider more palatable, then does that coach have to deal with that athlete using the facilities for a year?

The facts are that those kids did not have to give up the scholarship. They had a year of free school. They just were no longer part of the team. They were free to train on their own, contact past coaches, etc..

Your "completely unfair choice" is a fantasy.

What you are calling "emotion" I call ethics, and BAS is lacking in them. Yes what she did is "legal" in the sense it was permitted under the rules, but it is a shitty way to treat someone, especially an 18-year-old just starting college. And now recruits will have to consider whether they want to run for someone who behaves in an unethical way.

And your hypothetical is idiotic. I am perfectly comfortable treating different behavior differently. Someone thrown off the team for assaulting another teammate: no access. Someone thrown of because the coach wants to use their scholarship for a different event or person: access. It isn't that hard and is the least a person could do if they are supposed to be a leader of young men and women.

TNrunnah wrote:

Seems like everyone is more upset with the "how" than the "what", which means this has boiled down to just emotion, not facts and logic.

I think giving a 400m IH a full scholarship isn't exactly a judicious use of scholarship money. I guess that shows how flush women's teams are with cash.

What the BAS apologists in this thread aren’t getting is that the uproar is not about whether UT broke any rules or should be held legally or financially accountable; it’s about how you treat other human beings, which is actually really important (even more so than scoring points at a track meet). Dismissing critics by saying that their arguments are about “just emotion” and not “facts and logic” shows how out of touch you people are.

I understand that BAS is ambitious, and that, as a new coach, she’s eager to make her mark on the program and prove herself. But only a sociopath can justify the way she went about dismissing these girls.

Athletic scholarships are a good deal IF you are part of that big middle ground of kid- one who's parents make too much money to allow you to receive financial aid, but don't make enough to help you pay for something as expensive as college.

Having a scholarship allowed me to graduate with very very little debt. There's a huge amount of prestige that goes with being a collegiate athlete, even a lowly T&F athlete. Don't discount that.

She handled this poorly, but I doubt she'll struggle to field a team.

No. They don't.

That;s not what happened here. People signed a full scholarship to come to UT to attend school and compete for the track and field team. Tennessee didn't hold up it's end of the bargain. Yes they gave them a free school but they didn't let them compete on the track team.

I'm not a lawyer so maybe they can cut them for any reason whatsoever but morally, it's clear to anyone with a brain that what they did is FLAT OUT WRONG.

Not only could they not compete, they couldn't work out or use facilities/coaches. So now they have to find a facility that will let them compete, find transportation, find a way to make that work with their academic schedule, and find a coach.

The silence by BAS and Tennessee tells you all you need to know. If they are proud of their actions, why wouldn't they comment to the reporter:

Making it all the worse is the fact that this all happened after a coaching change. So these were freshmen who all came to compete for another coach who was fired. The school should be bending over backward to accomodate them as they already were coming to something less than ideal. Tennesssee just made it way worse by throwing gasoline on the fire.

What this thread lacks is a voice from someone who has no stake in the NCAA system at all. Even the brojos (actually, especially them) have an interest in the whole deal:

They ran for HS team(s) to get noticed by recruiters (recruiters don't peruse road results and track competitions are difficult to access without school affiliation)

They competed and used all the elegibility they could in the NCAA

Some self-esteem is (even years later) connected to running for a school: conference titles, team titles, PRs set while there, etc.

They currently coach, formerly coached, and/or want to coach for some NCAA affiliated program.

If none of the above describes you - and rest assured it describes 99% of the MB audience (the only posters here who have absolutely nothing to do with any NCAA program are those who couldn't get in on it but did try to) - then you may feel like I do.

I don't, didn't, and did not try to run for any NCAA member school. As a result, I had no need to run for my HS team as appearing in results accessible by recruiters was not a priority in the least. I realize that no one else on this forum is described by these facts, so I'm the only one who can lay down an objective opinion. I simply have no love for the NCAA. I literally have no dog in the fight.

So here's the deal: any school is welcome to offer scholarships to anyone elegible to participate (ie cannot have accepted prize money but could have taken free gear). These can be anyone they damn well feel like giving the dough to. The fat aunt of the ADs girlfriend to get paid back for all the great holliday dinners. The coach's wheelchair-bound next-door-neighbor's grandpa who didn't throw rocks as the young coach ran by. A shockingly unathletic kid who has great academic potential but can't cash in on it, prompting everyon of campus to feel sorry for her.

These programs also have the right to give these checks to someone on a trial basis - ie for less than 5 years. "Hey junior, you've got one season to win a conference title for us, then you can stay. If not, you're out.". Totally fine. It's their money. You are not owed any of it. Your buddy's neice is not owed anything. In fact, they're welcome to not give out a dime in scholarships. If you want to participate, walk on. I'll go one step further: they are allowed to not have a team at all. Don't have to hire a coach, build facilities, get insurance to cover inevitable mishaps, etc.

Why all the whining on the boards whenever a school cuts the program all together? Who cares when someone you've heard of get a scholarship cut? Are schools obligated to do anything? Are they even obligated to exist? Are you the same crowd that freaks out when the only grocery store in a poor neighborhood decides to pull up stakes? Do you all feel that the world owes you an education, a living, health care and transportation?

Get a grip on reality and get a life folks. About the only thing in the whole cosmic order of the universe less significant than who won an NCAA meet is who won the National Scabble tournament. You people (yes, I include LRC staff) are an embarrassment to the sport. This thread is truly a joke.

No parent with knowledge of this story and another option would entrust their daughter to UT and BAS... This is really despicable. BAS seems like the bully in the room.

We should crowd-fund a lawsuit!

no way this person - and other persons expressing sentiment that this was somehow acceptable - is not associated with the coach and or the University.

and now for a surprise: truth wrote:

I don't, didn't, and did not try to run for any NCAA member school. As a result, I had no need to run for my HS team as appearing in results accessible by recruiters was not a priority in the least. I realize that no one else on this forum is described by these facts, so I'm the only one who can lay down an objective opinion. I simply have no love for the NCAA. I literally have no dog in the fight..

Sorry, dude, you missed the point by a mile and a half.

I don't care about the NCAA (ran in it, no scholarship), but I DO care about other people, and how a college treats them.

A true Nihilist. I would wager significant money that the person who wrote this is a sociopath; if not because they think that caring about something makes you unable to comment on anything dealing with it, then because they think caring about grave social injustice is something to mock.

This is a brilliant debate tactic.

Simply declare that only you can give an objective opinion. No need to assess the validity or soundness of someone else's argument.

Brilliant!

Like other BAS apologists, the opposing view has gone several meters over your head.

We're discussing morals, not rights.

Legality, whether in NCAA terms, or real terms, is not a sufficient condition for morality. This is extremely easy to show. Example:

P1) Slavery was previously legal.

P2) If legality is a sufficient condition for morality, then slavery was moral.

P3) But slavery was not moral.

C) Therefore, legality is not a sufficient condition for morality.

Again, like other BAS apologists, you characterize discussion as "whining."

You've been outed.

I'll go with the rather obvious answer of - people whose posts you read which express that they care.

Yes.

Nonsense question.

Non-sequitur.

Non-sequitur.

It doesn't follow that because other things matter more that therefore what BAS did was right.

You've utterly failed to show otherwise.

Not sure what you are talking about.

1) Neither Weldon or myself were recruited out of HS. Between the two of us, we had a combined total I think of 1.5 years of HS track running.

2) I didn't run in college.

3) I used to coach at a college program (that didn't have scholarships).

Your post make no sense. You seem to think that since we have past NCAA ties that we are biased. IN reality, we'd be biased for collegiate athletics. Instead, it's us ripping the system and you defending it.

Yes colleges can pretty much do whatever they hell they can. It doesn't mean that's what they SHOULD do.

You're right about this. That helps makes our freaking point. It's only women's track and field. It's a money losing sport. It's not men's football. So there are no monetary reasons to do it. So their actions are even more indefensible.

I think the coach handled this EXTREMELY poorly. But in regards to a lawsuit I'm having a hard time finding damages other than hurt feelings.

I guess they could go to court and the Judge could make the coach say "I'm sorry I wasn't nicer when I cut you from my track team."

TNrunnah wrote:

I think the coach handled this EXTREMELY poorly. But in regards to a lawsuit I'm having a hard time finding damages other than hurt feelings.

I guess they could go to court and the Judge could make the coach say "I'm sorry I wasn't nicer when I cut you from my track team."

It depends heavily on what the letter of intent and scholarship agreement says. In any case, damages are easy to show: The loss of 3 years tuition, fees room and board. I wouldn't think that compensation for emotional trauma would be too hard to get either. If I were a lawyer, I'd take this case pro bono. There's probably plenty of high quality attorneys - ex runners - who would do that in a heart beat. Regardless, if the families can afford a decent attorney, they'll clean up. Why? UTK is already suffering in the arena of public opinion over this. I know of two runners in my little corner of the world that BAS recruited that decided not to go to UT after learning about this (I told them....). UT will prefer to settle out of court - it will minimize further bad publicity. They'll also be letting BAS go for the same reason.

By the way, this is how the market works. It's not about 'whining'. It's about suffering the natural consequences of doing sh*tty things to people, and making them your enemies. Wait, this is all going to come back ten fold on her. You can see it here on the message boards now. If it was her strategy to cast aside sprinters so she could recruit more distance runners, then pissing off the LR movers and shakers is the end of her. Regardless, BAS is more than likely done in college athletics. About the only job she's suited for now is con artist or hedge fund manager. I doubt she's smart enough to do either.

Go for it dude.. maybe you'll win $3 for hurt feelings and a lifetime supply of Kleenex.

Tick tick tick tick tick tick tick.....

It's only a matter of time, BAS, only a matter of time....

and now for a surprise: truth wrote:

the only posters here who have absolutely nothing to do with any NCAA program are those who couldn't get in on it but did try to

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong.

The rest is UT apologist nonsense. If in fact you acted in the way you are supporting, then no one will trust you, ever.