Sub 1:50 800m Training

Pmoax19 wrote:

All I can really say about plyos is that it progresses:

Low -Bounds, skips, hops

Medium -Box jumps, uphill (bounds,skips, hops), single leg progressions

High -Box jumps multiple responses, lower depth jumps and drops, reactive drills

Shock-This phase should be no longer than 3-4 weeks (includes depth jumps, depth drops, and super high intensity plyos)

As far as how to periodize I would probably set your shock phase to coincide with the end of spp. Once PCP and CP start you do not want plyo's compeating for CNS time. You wouldn't do a hard plyo session before speed work, and the other way around too. Sure you can try but ground contact times will be too long and you will fry your cns. Sprints are actually by nature plyometric so to getting more effecient at that form of plyometric behavior takes prescedence (sp).

NO.

Skips and hops are not plyometrics, and either are sprinting.

Before you do plyos you must have a strong base of strength or you will get injured.

The soviets called plyometrics shock training for a reason.

Sprinting, hops,skips ARE Plyometrics.

Sprinting is the most specific "plyo" you can do. Especially for distance runners. It puts everything together.

Think in terms of what they accomplish, not in semantic names.

frompage 22

gidday (that's Aussie for hello)

once again i suffered from the deleted post at the last minute deleted post syndrome and had to wait for enthusiasm to rebuild. It seems to have done so now.

Turnover - speed of turnover -

the word turnover is the key as it indicates something important by it's two parts - turn and over you turn your leg over. Turn it over what is important - you turn it over itself. The leg rolls over itself and not through itself. This is very important as moving'through itself' results in the creation of drag and drag slows things down.

To avoid drag by turning the leg over itself most effectively a circle must be created. Any other shape will have less potential for a higher and higher amount of speed. The perfect circle has no corners and so can be spun faster and faster to infinity - machines often create circles that move extremely fast. The closer the legs can come to achieving this circle the higher the potential for speed or turnover.

So the practical question is how to achieve this circular motion. First another theory bit - The circle is only created because there is forward motion. If there is a stationary position then the creation of a circle is artificial. If the athlete is stationary then what the leg is actually doing is moving up and down in a vertical plane or vertical line of the body. This plane is actually our coronal plane which is viewed when from either side of the body.

So for me the first step of developing speed (or a faster turnover in this case) is to discover this coronal/side on plane and how to move our legs along it.

THE REAL BUTT KICK:

-Stand perfectly vertical: this position allows for less musculature to be involved in holding ourselves up and therefore more relaxation (which is the other main element of speed - more below on that)

-Then imagine a line which runs from the center of your foot arch to the center of your hip and then to your CofG.

-Next lift the heel along this line until it hits the underside of your butt - most specifically the ischeal tuberosity - the bone you sit on - the junction between your glutes and your hammies.

-Find this path and leg the heel move along it faster and faster - make sure the knee gets out of the road of this action by moving forward enough to facilitate the heel lift.

-This essentially is the butt kick action but is probably different to how most people attempt it. More often than not the knee remains in a fixed position so the heel is forced to move backwards behind the body and ends up kicking the butt from behind instead of underneath.

-In order to make this movement move faster and faster relaxation needs to be added to the equation - the more relaxation the more potential speed. Quite literally the less active the muscles of the leg the higher the speed potential.

-So how does this extreme relaxation allow for the leg to be lifted? It occurs because the leg is lifted by the hip and not the muscles of the leg itself. The hip lifts upwards away from the ground and at the same time pulls the leg into itself. If the hip can lift actively then the main job of drawing the leg upwards and the heel along this coronal plane. The hip lifts actively by using the muscles between the pelvis and the lumbar spine. The leg lifts actively by using the hip flexors. Combined these two different groups of muscles make for almost a potentially instantaneous movement.

-Once this butt kick has been established in a standing stationary position you can start running on the spot and find the line in both legs in even rhythm.

-Next is to start moving forward and this is where the circle begins to be created. Initially at a very slow forward pace the circle is more like an oval but the faster the athlete moves the closer it comes to becoming a circle.

-The interesting thing is that even though a circle appears to be created if viewed from side on the action is still a Vertical one - always a vertical one. Always feel for and attempt to create the vertical motion.

cheers

Thanks! Sounds similar to the pose method...but without the forward lean

Really? I haven't had any direct exposure to Pose and it's creator - he must have some insight into the structure of the body and it's movements.

Are you saying he advocates a forward lean?

Yes, he states that a forward lean from the ankles and simply lifting the foot from the ground with high turnover is the most effecient way to run. He states that there is no pushoff from the ground and that if done correctly the only active muscle group is the hamstring. Effectivly, you are always falling forward due to gravity and you are catching up so as not to fall completely. He points to Haile Gebreselassie and others running with his technique (unknowingly) as evidence. It is popular mainly amongst triathletes.

I think the only reason he gets results is that changing heelstriking shufflers into forefoot striking runners with stronger hips+hamstrings and better overall mechanics is bound to improve times. His theories are all wrong.

dunno wrote:

Sprinting, hops,skips ARE Plyometrics.

NO, they´re not. Read "Better training for distance runners" (Coe/Martin) p. 266-268.

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

Yes, he states that a forward lean from the ankles and simply lifting the foot from the ground with high turnover is the most effecient way to run. He states that there is no pushoff from the ground and that if done correctly the only active muscle group is the hamstring. Effectivly, you are always falling forward due to gravity and you are catching up so as not to fall completely. He points to Haile Gebreselassie and others running with his technique (unknowingly) as evidence. It is popular mainly amongst triathletes.

I think the only reason he gets results is that changing heelstriking shufflers into forefoot striking runners with stronger hips+hamstrings and better overall mechanics is bound to improve times. His theories are all wrong.

ok maybe i agree with this Pose fellow a little more than it seems.

When you are in stasis ie nothing is changing then the CofG sits in the middle (when viewed from side on) of your body ie from front to back

Stasis is whenever speed is unchanging ie when still or stationary as in the standing or running on the spot phases of the Real Butt Kick exercise i've detailed above OR when moving forward but without acceleration or deceleration

with this one caveat

in order to get moving from stationary you will have to lean a certain amount (very small) in order to actually get moving. This exact amount is what you need to move the CofG in its resting position in the center of our mass to the front edge or front line of our position. It is a half the distance of our breadth ie from back to front. It will take you up onto the balls of the feet and then the smallest fraction beyond.

alternatively if you bend your knees and other leg joints the smallest amount your chest will move forward, just as the knees also move forward and the butt and hips will move backwards. This in fact it the initiation of a squat and most people run in the position of a very small squat. Travel deeper into the squat and the forward lean becomes more pronounced. The deeper you go the greater the forward angle of the back.

Add these two ideas together and you have a runner who is in the small squat position maintain their speed by having the chest on the front line of the body and their weight still centered in front section of the arch but still supported by the balls of the toes.

The interesting thing is that the more you accelerate to full speed the lesser the squat, the slower you go the more the squat. A hovercraft is a good image to use here to illustrate this.

sorry for not adding that fact but it is besides the point for initial learning purposes - gravity does fall vertically and to learn to harmonise with it stay vertical

- somewhere here there is something i am meant to understand to further my knowledge but i don;t know what it is

one thing that is important though is not to rely oin this lean - for reliance on it will mean there will be a lack of development of the internal locomotion musculature which also gets us moving forward. Still to not use this falling and catching capacity would also be unwise - the best result is from a balanced combination of the two

I disagree very much so. Where on earth did you learn that skips, hops, and sprinting are not plyometrics.

First of all the soviets used the shock phase of plyometrics extensively, depth jumps and drops. In order to perform these yes you do need a strong strength base (I think the long time figure was a double body weight squat, I belive it is more individualized). The word plyometric is derived from greek, the russians can call depth jumps what they please but don't spread misinformation by saying the russians called plyo's "shock training". Skips and bounds are the fundamental building blocks of plyometric activity.

I'd like to hear more thoughts on weight-lifting. I've begun to introduce what someone suggested as "Bulgarian Split Squats", and I must say, I was doing hurdle drills this evening and without a doubt had wayyyyyy more flexibility in my groinal area, however, my quads have been feeling very sore, and easy runs aren't particularly easy anymore since the addition of these squats. Any comments? Also, what other weightlifting exercise is good for stride length/strength? Thanks a heep, lovely thread thus far, let's remember why it was made! =)

Anbessa

I disagree very much so. Where on earth did you learn that skips, hops, and sprinting are not plyometrics.

First of all the soviets used the shock phase of plyometrics extensively, depth jumps and drops. In order to perform these yes you do need a strong strength base (I think the long time figure was a double body weight squat, I belive it is more individualized). The word plyometric is derived from greek, the russians can call depth jumps what they please but don't spread misinformation by saying the russians called plyo's "shock training". Skips and bounds are the fundamental building blocks of plyometric activity.[/quote]

MISINFORMATION????? It's day one science!!! Learned it in Exercise physiology by one of the most well-respected Professors in the field. The Soviets DID call Plyometrics shock training.

This was posted by Dr. Michael Yessis a few days ago. Dr. Yessis is the first Westerner to translate the early Soviet literature to English and is one of the most well-versed experts in Soviet training methodology.

Well his damn site is down; but from his Yuri Verkhoshansky's "Special Strength Training: A Practical Manual for Coaches" pg 27,29

SHOCK METHOD

The shock method is used for the development of explosive strength of various muscle groups. The most widely used method is a vertical jump upward after a drop down from a height of .7-8. meters.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT ONE SHOULD NOT RELATE TO THE SHOCK METHOD IN A FRIVOLOUS MANNER. In recent times, in many publications (MAINLY IN THE USA), the authors offer various variants of shock methods. HOWEVER, they NEGLECT the basic rules which were experimentally developed and verified even back in the 1960's.

JUMP EXERCISES

Jump exercises are used for the development of explosive leg strength,i.e., so-called "jump force." They are executed as singles repetitions or REPEATED TAKE-OFFS on one or both legs.

From Wikipedia:

A plyometric contraction involves first a rapid muscle lengthening movement, followed by a short resting phase, then an explosive muscle shortening movement, which enables the muscles that work together in doing the particular motion. Plyometric training engages the myostatic-reflex, which is the automatic contraction of muscle when their stretch nerve receptors are stimulated.

In addition to the elastic-recoil of the musculotendonous system there is a neurological component. The stretch shortening cycle affects the sensory response of the muscle spindles and golgi tendon organs (GTO). It is believed that during plyometric exercise, the excitatory threshold of the GTO's is increased, making them less likely to send signals to limit force production when the muscle has increased tension. This facilitates greater contraction force than normal strength or power exercise, and thus greater training ability.

The muscle spindles are involved in the stretch reflex and are triggered by rapid lengthening of the muscle as well as absolute length. At the end of the rapid eccentric contraction, the muscle has reached a great length at a high velocity. This may cause the muscle spindle to enact a powerful stretch reflex, further enhancing the power of the following concentric contraction. The muscle spindle's sensitivity to velocity is another reason why the amortisation phase must be brief for a plyometric effect.

A longer term neurological component involves training the muscles to contract more quickly and powerfully by altering the timing and firing rates of the motor units. During a normal contraction, motor units peak in a de-synchronized fashion until tetany is reached. Plyometric training conditions the neurons to contract with a single powerful surge rather than several disorganized contractions. The result is a stronger, faster contraction allowing a heavy load (such as the body) to be moved quickly and forcefully.

A plyometric exercise involves:

1. An eccentric contraction

2. A brief amortisation phase (no change in muscle length)

3. A short concentric contraction delivering maximum force in a short period of time

I will post a very detailed, EVIDENCE BASED theory on resistance training methods and means.

Soreness with Bulgarians....welcome to the club!!

But you probably did way too many reps for whta your body could handle at the time, no worries. It is all about the sequence.

Great post Flow!

Anthony Colotti wrote:

I will post a very detailed, EVIDENCE BASED theory on resistance training methods and means.

Soreness with Bulgarians....welcome to the club!!

But you probably did way too many reps for what your body could handle at the time, no worries. It is all about the sequence.

I look forward to this!

I suppose, I did 3x10 on each leg (of course) with 20pd dumbells in each hand. I definitely feel it, but you say it's part of "a sequence", im not sure I understand, Does my body compensate after a certain amount of time? Of course with most weightraining, your body recovers, then becomes more enduring and capable of performing the exercise...but how exactly does it work SPECIFICALLY with these squats? I was hoping by doing them I would open my stride for a more powerful and efficient stride. Again, if anyone would be so kind to offer there thoughts on not only this exercise but others that aid in Stride efficiency and strength, it would be much appreciated!

Anbessa

I belive you didn't read what I said. All you did was back up my views. Tell me sprinting and bounding doesn't contain the three things you just mentioned.1. An eccentric contraction2. A brief amortisation phase (no change in muscle length)3. A short concentric contraction delivering maximum force in a short period of timeWith the russian thing, I agree they called it shock training I never said I disagreed, but they were refering primarly to depth jumps and drops which if you read my initial post that you were so ready to shoot down you would know. Thats how I classified depth jumps and drops, as a shock method.

Anthony Colotti wrote:

SHOCK METHOD

The shock method is used for the development of explosive strength of various muscle groups. The most widely used method is a vertical jump upward after a drop down from a height of .7-8. meters.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT ONE SHOULD NOT RELATE TO THE SHOCK METHOD IN A FRIVOLOUS MANNER. In recent times, in many publications (MAINLY IN THE USA), the authors offer various variants of shock methods. HOWEVER, they NEGLECT the basic rules which were experimentally developed and verified even back in the 1960's.

hmm... read what you have capitalized in that paragraph

It says it right here, everything is based off of well-controlled extensive research.

I've got to disagree with flow. Actively lifting the heel during the running cycle isn't what should be done. The recovery phase is largely due to various stretch reflex mechanisms. In other words, it is initiated and occurs mostly due to things that you don't need to control or think about.

Not to mention, heel recovery is influenced by other mechanisms, like foot strike,hip extension, etc.

...Really because I read it as saying the Shock Method (depth jumps) is very specific and should not be used in a vauge sense to refer to plyometrics as a whole.

I agree with you 100% about the shock phase and your prior warnings that a high level of strength must be attained prior to using them. You are right, I am not trying to argue that with you.

Ok so if bounding, skipping, and hops aren't plyometrics the how can you perform them without..

1. An eccentric contraction

2. A BRIEF AMORITISATION PHASE (no change in muscle length)

3. A short concentric contraction delivering maximum force in a short period of time

do you skip by performing isometric contractions?!?!..... I skip by doing the exact steps for plyometrics by your 3 requirements. Sprinting is the most plyometric activity by nature, shortest ground contact times and shortest amoritisation phase.

Either you don't want to accept that you made a mistake on this, or you cannot grasp that other activities are plyometric even though you just defined them as. There is a difference between regurgitating(sp) russian sport science and applying and understanding it, you come on here and try to impress everyone with your exotic sounding knowledge when you are just a very stubborn person.