Also, periodization is good. The threshold/cv type stuff is great, but there comes a time for a period of hard Daniels phase 3 type stuff.
Maybe you could try something like Daniels for half a year and see if it does anything for you.
there are so many options. and you still have some good years of improvement ahead, if smart. good luck with your race, phil.
high school xc coach wrote:
the breathing thing is fairly normal for some. I don't know how much affect it has. I run with a guy who breathes heavy for his entire run, but never slows.
the other day, we did 7:15 pace for 6 miles, which is fairly conversational for me, though a good effort. He was huffing and puffing from the first 1/4 mile. but kept with me the whole time. I think I was at something like M pace, while he was honestly probably right about a true 10k pace.
point is, i think it is fairly normal for some people to have heavy breathing throughout the entirety of a 5k/10k effort.
would love to hear other people's takes on this.
Agreed. There were some threads before on this ("what's limiting factor in a race") and people commented about also witnessing someone who was breathing like a steam train but kept up with the pack the whole time and then even outkicked them at the end.
But when you look at elite runners, even when they run all-out they don't breathe like that, for them it's really the total system/cardiovascular limiting. I only managed to get to that point during lactate tests, where I pushed myself very hard in mile or 2k repeats and wasn't as fast/fit yet.
Could be VO2MAX related, lung related, breathing technique, or also maybe allergies, I have a lot of allergies and indoor was usually better breathing wise. But interesting that I only get this problem once I pass a certain level of effort (say 3:15/k or faster) and am fine at slower paces.
high school xc coach wrote:
Also, periodization is good. The threshold/cv type stuff is great, but there comes a time for a period of hard Daniels phase 3 type stuff.
Maybe you could try something like Daniels for half a year and see if it does anything for you.
there are so many options. and you still have some good years of improvement ahead, if smart. good luck with your race, phil.
Exactly, I had a long base/CV/threshold phase and that was the plan. Sadly, I got sick at one point, and then later did another 8-day break or so cos I got addicted to gaming again. The hard sessions ("balls to the wall") and/or races really elevate me to another level, and I hope the 2 races I've done recently will be enough to get that sub 16 now.
Since I joined a medium sized running club, I might train with some of the people here. There are some 15-16 year old kids training for a sub 2:00 800m, big age gap but maybe I can do some faster workouts with them and mix things up a bit. Tinman training 24/7 does get stale and monotonous, especially since it's also based on long-term improvement that doesn't show quickly. So maybe I don't get 15:30-15:45 this time, but that doesn't mean the entire year was useless/wasted! I might have just set the foundation for good times in the future and just need some pep now to bring it down in the races.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Canefis wrote:
Did you analyze your training, what is wrong?:
1) Lack of muscles or lack of heart capacity (heart volume+capillaries+economy+lungs)
2) Do you have enough base speed for run 03:06 min/km (15:30 PR 5K) pace?:
a) yes, how many minutes can you hold this pace?
b) yes, what is happen when you cannot hold pace more than xx minutes?:
- heart rate to high and you have lack of breezing?
- legs are very pain and you slow down?
- legs are fresh, heart rate low, you fill good but cannot keep pace?
- all together breezing, heart rate and legs pain?
I don't know, thinking about doing a lactate threshold test again. My last values were 3:34/k at 4 mmol and 4:02/k at 2 mmol, and I ran a 16:10 5k off that by running extremely hard, holding on to a pack (3:20/k pace) and then passing 10 runners at the end with a 60 last 400.
I'm strong on short 5-30s hill reps and can run 30s 200s with ease/without much breathing. So I think the legs have enough power, and my heart is very strong too.
My problem is after like 400-500m at 3:10-3:15/k my breathing gets very heavy. I don't feel much if any pain during races right now but struggle with the air. This is the same in the 1500 and 3000. The next days the throat is sore, and in extreme cases, like the 16:10 5k last year or 16:18 solo track 5k this year I get sick after.
The other problem is I'm not relaxed enough in my upper body, and move the arms heavily (like a sprinter) and rotate shoulders too much. Since I always forced the paces and trained very hard, I never learned to really cruise or run fast and relaxed.
Think about it that way - training too hard all the time obviously helped me get very strong muscles, but I was never at the right intensities to develop aerobically and become a smooth, efficient, economic runner like for example Ingebrigtsen. There is a reason he trains with HR and often lactate values. Training very hard to push even harder worked for me last year since I got a lot out of the body, but it never made me fitter, and to reach a higher level I need to get fitter/better thresholds if it's still possible genetically (which it should, considering how fast I improved in my first 12-18 months).
03:34pace with 4mmol, please specify pulse in % from HRmax?
03:10pace, please specify pulse in % from HRmax?
Tell me also this:
1) your pace at avg. 75% HRmax within 1 hour duration?
03:10 - this is your 3K pace,
In order to run 03:06 5K, you need more stronger cardiovascular system at first, and than muscles at second one.
LT pace for 03:06 5K, should be around 03:23-03:20.
Easy pace at 75% HRmax should be 04:10-04:15
Canefis wrote:
Tell me also this:
1) your pace at avg. 75% HRmax within 1 hour duration?
where should you be, relative to other paces, for a 1 hour run at 75%?
Canefis wrote:
03:10 - this is your 3K pace,
In order to run 03:06 5K, you need more stronger cardiovascular system at first, and than muscles at second one.
LT pace for 03:06 5K, should be around 03:23-03:20.
Easy pace at 75% HRmax should be 04:10-04:15
3:06 is his 3k pace.
Canefis wrote:
03:10 - this is your 3K pace,
In order to run 03:06 5K, you need more stronger cardiovascular system at first, and than muscles at second one.
LT pace for 03:06 5K, should be around 03:23-03:20.
Easy pace at 75% HRmax should be 04:10-04:15
yikes. bad news for me! I am something like 3:45 to 3:52 for 5k pace.
75% for 1 hour, I am 5:00 to 5:20 depending on the day. 5:15 probably most common days.
The 3:34/k (HR 168) 4 mmol was a year ago. I don't have a current lactate test.
5x2000m in
4:35/k - HR 135 - 1.3 mmol
4:10/k - HR 152 - 1.8 mmol
3:45/k - HR 162 - 2.9 mmol
3:25/k - HR 173 - 5.2 mmol
3:10/k - HR 180 (max) - 9.7 mmol. Was at max HR pretty much half way through and it was very tough.
I raced 3 5k around that time, first and hardest in 3:15/k, then 3:17/k, then 3:20/k.
Then I trained for a year, lots of mileage and CV/threshold, and recently did a 3:17/k 5k and 3:06/k 3k. But they hurt a lot less, so I think (hope?) my threshold improved by 5-15s.
You would've accepted JS offer. He had probably already got you sub 15.30 with less mileage.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
The 3:34/k (HR 168) 4 mmol was a year ago. I don't have a current lactate test.
5x2000m in
4:35/k - HR 135 - 1.3 mmol
4:10/k - HR 152 - 1.8 mmol
3:45/k - HR 162 - 2.9 mmol
3:25/k - HR 173 - 5.2 mmol
3:10/k - HR 180 (max) - 9.7 mmol. Was at max HR pretty much half way through and it was very tough.
I raced 3 5k around that time, first and hardest in 3:15/k, then 3:17/k, then 3:20/k.
Then I trained for a year, lots of mileage and CV/threshold, and recently did a 3:17/k 5k and 3:06/k 3k. But they hurt a lot less, so I think (hope?) my threshold improved by 5-15s.
You see, why you need to improve threshold, when you have lack of cardiovascular system capacity to run 03:06 pace?
Do you know, when your heart is limiting you, all your threshold training is like pendulum: you created mitochondria, you burned it by excess amount of H+ in your blood, and your level of muscles remains same, 0 improvement or very little...
Training is not only muscles...
Magic Master wrote:
You would've accepted JS offer. He had probably already got you sub 15.30 with less mileage.
He Jan, yet another handle
https://youtu.be/5QSIF_I2ZUgMagic Master wrote:
You would've accepted JS offer. He had probably already got you sub 15.30 with less mileage.
Measured 5k Road Race in 15:55.3, PR!
Splits: 3:00-3:13-3:16-3:23-3:02
Big milestone finally reached. First k in 3:00 was very easy, then I settled into my pace and started struggling in the solo race. At k3 I was only running 3:20/k anymore, then fell back to even 3:25/k. I just tried to hold on, but had given up on sub 16 at that point. Then, at k4 I realized I only need a 3:07 last k for sub 16 and started gradually accelerating. With a last 400 in 64 (34-30) I gave everything I had and crossed the line in 15:55! Was lying on the floor afterwards and had to dry heave/vomit for a few min but was fine after.
2nd place, winner was a 15-year old kid setting a national youth record in 14:49.
While this is a decent end for the season, I was hoping for a bigger improvement than 15s in 12 months but you can't always get what you want. I trained really hard for 10 months and barely improved, also getting some sicknesses/injuries throughout that always caused setbacks. The last 6 weeks I was more relaxed, added strength sessions and ate better and finally seem to improve again at a good rate.
This marks the end of my season and this thread. I will do a base phase now and enter some XC races and indoor track races (options are 800, 1500 and 3000). I was hoping to update my CV pace to 3:15/k, but my aerobic fitness/stamina is definitely lacking, so I think 3:20/k for k's, 3:25/k for miles and 3:30-3:35/k for tempos are appropriate paces. I can't run the 15:55 equivalent in a 10k (3:18/k), and the 15:55 was also powered by anaerobic energy with a strong first and last k saving the time.
Well done Phil!
Sorry but the race is not officially measured and the GPS data looks a bit off
still a good effort!
It was an AIMS measured course, the record by the winner is already in the books.
Read about AIMS here:
https://aims-worldrunning.org/course-measurement.html
GPS is very exact, and the course is pancake flat. Most of it is on the Kipchoge-street where he ran 1:59 marathon.
Weird Gps wrote:
Sorry but the race is not officially measured and the GPS data looks a bit off
still a good effort!
....and there was net elevation, a tailwind, 4 naked beauties as a windshield, and the results of the drug test are awaited.
FFS, this is a running forum, not the IOC
Well done Phil!