Doesn't Russian Doping Scandal Prove Canova is Right about EPO?

rekrunner wrote:

Were you not paying attention? Even better. Best non-African busted for EPO only runs a best time of 8:04.95, 12 seconds slower than best doped African Boulami, producing the 161st best all time performance. The 12 second difference between Vroemen and Boulami is NOT EPO.

And do you read up on things before you post? Vroemen was not busted for EPO. He was busted first for metandienone. Then he was accused of using an illegal infusion. If Vroemen was not using EPO then the difference between him and Boulami may well be EPO.

From the article:

"After this race, Vroemen requested a doping test and was tested positive for the banned anabolic steroid metandienone. He contested the outcome based on scientific evidence that his (legal) anti-asthma medication caused the test to report false positives. More than 1.5 years after the "positive" test and the missed opportunity to run at the Olympics, the Sports Court released Vroemen of the doping charges, based on scientific evidence that the allowed asthma medication triggered the test. During these 1.5 years, the anti-doping authorities also tried to accuse Vroemen of using an illegal infusion in 2006. Vroemen was also declared innocent in this case and all charges were dropped. He has returned to racing and won the national steeple chase championship 3 more times in the years 2011, 2012 and 2013, to bring his total steeple chase championship count to 15 times. Vroemen retired from professional racing thereafter."

jCo wrote:

Obviously I am talking about Men.

EPO does not work on men.

Then it didn't work on ryan halls friend Mo Trafeh.

jCo wrote:

Obviously I am talking about Men.

EPO does not work on men.

...Except with cyclists. Lol

So, Brahim Boulami ran faster on EPO than anybody ever before or since. For you this does not provide any evidence of EPO working?Simon Vroemen, running after the introduction of EPO, ran faster than anybody prior to the EPO era (your definition, the 3000SC world record in 1985 was Rono's 8:05.4). Many other people have also ran faster than the then-existing world record. For you this does not provide any evidence of EPO working?Baumann, running after the introduction of EPO, ran faster than anybody ever prior to the EPO era (again, your definition, the 1985 WR was Aouita's 13:00.40). At least six other white men, and many Africans as well, have run faster than that record since the introduction of EPO. For you this does not provide any evidence of EPO working?

rekrunner wrote:

This quote was specifically about Baumann (45th best performer at 5000m with the best non-African performance of all time), and more generally about non-Africans -- sorry if that wasn't clear from the context. Who's the fastest non-African during the period of the great EPO-era? Simon Vroemen with 8:04.95?

Mr. Obvious wrote:

You are making up this claim, and it is demonstrably false. Brahim Boulami ran faster on EPO than anybody else has ever run.

...

I stand corrected. Looks like Vroemen was not "Bad choice of a name" after all.

whitewashed wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Were you not paying attention? Even better. Best non-African busted for EPO only runs a best time of 8:04.95, 12 seconds slower than best doped African Boulami, producing the 161st best all time performance. The 12 second difference between Vroemen and Boulami is NOT EPO.

And do you read up on things before you post? Vroemen was not busted for EPO. He was busted first for metandienone. Then he was accused of using an illegal infusion. If Vroemen was not using EPO then the difference between him and Boulami may well be EPO.

the more recent fast times and records of africans ............

again all to do with newer peds within the usual mix .

and more controlled epo use within a non testing frame

IGF-1 lr3 definitly being used

that souped up nervous system those wonders for course of marathon

aswell as other not so popular events as javelin and 400mh

for 800m ,rudisha was so dirty now and then just cant use

gw501516 anymore but still use all of above. especially igf-1 lr3 .

it is not a wonder peptide for no reason

look what this peptide has done for scottish longer distances

in afew years with absolute worst ever interest and serious participation

in athletics there ever

cheers canova for your part in destruction of longer distance in europe

by doping eyeballs out of africans

Bundle all non-Africans together, for two decades, and none of them (clean or dirty) run faster than Vroemen's (clean or dirty) 8:04.95, only 0.45 seconds faster than Rono's 8:05.4, and almost 12 seconds slower than the world record, in the EPO-era.Does that work for you?When Vroemen ran the ALL TIME non-African best of 8:04.95, he was nearly 10 seconds behind the winner. Does that work for you?In 5000m Baumann (assuming he was on steroids and EPO -- or not, doesn't matter) leads all non-Africans with a time 5.7 seconds faster than Aouiti and Moorcroft, while East Africans have lowered the record by 20+ seconds.Does that work for you?While you desperately want to prove effectiveness for individuals, that's completely missing the point. It's not working to bring them to the top. If non-Africans advanced so little for decades in the EPO-era, why should we think EPO helped East and North Africans so much? Either 1) EPO doesn't really work, or 2) maybe non-Africans worldwide just did not try EPO for decades.Go back to the subject: In the case of Russians, we find many examples of drug effectiveness (EPO, HGH, and steroids) in the women, and for the men in race walking. Yet the Russians had 26 men competing in 5000m between 13:30 and 14:20, and 16 men competing in 10000m between 28:15 and 29:50, during the peak scandal years of 2011-2013. Where they clean? Maybe they WERE dirty, and EPO just didn't work? Maybe they were clean because someone believed EPO wouldn't work?

your not to bright are you?

you take the russians and they are like mid D2 college talent, you dope them and they can then run 13:30-14 for the 5k.....the EPO is working they are running prob 40-50 seconds faster with it.

the problem that all you canova lovers cant figure out is you still need TALENT

no talent + epo = faster than you would have been but not anything good

mediocre talent + epo = can make you a sponsored athlete in some of the low end countries, or get you a scholarship to a college or maybe make nationals

above average talent + epo = can make you a national champ, pro level runner, or in some cases top 5 in the world

top talent + epo = WR setter, dominating races with no effort, HUGE OUTLIER performances, huge drops in time in the end of ones regular career, as in kellie white, Mo and others

the reason canova preaches on and on about it doesnt work, or it doesnt work on kenyans, or it only works when your out of shape and a low level talent, or it doesnt work at altitude etc etc etc....is simple

HEY CONTINUES THE LIE so he can CONTINUE to make money, to be the self proclaimed GURU of distance coaches..CAUSE HE IS JUICING HIS ATHLETES. yes canova you have good talent and you might have some good workouts but the EPO is what is making you and your athletes look so AMAZING

Here you go totally off the reservation and start applying unscientific standards again.You seem to be conflating two vastly different ideas:1. EPO does not work2. Africans are faster than non-Africansand shifting your frame of reference constantly when it suits you to try to downplay the actual evidence. These two theorems are not dependent upon each other, except in some twisted way in your own mind.You have given two different frames of reference. When shown that white people since the introduction of EPO era ran faster than anybody ever had before EPO was introduced, you point out that Africans (during the EPO era) ran faster. OK, but that has nothing to do with the 1985 reference point (your reference point). Those other people were also running after the introduction of EPO, which means that if you are looking for evidence that EPO works, you have to include them in the pool as well.But you are totally correct, if you exclude women (because EPO works on them), you exclude people who participated in clinical trials (because they are too slow), you exclude race walkers (because rekrunner doesn't like race walking), you exclude people who tested positive while setting a world record for EPO, you exclude people who became world and olympic champion while testing positive for EPO, you exclude people who ran under the 1985 world record (because other possible EPO users ran even faster), you exclude people who only set national records while testing positive for EPO, you exclude people who set masters records while testing positive for EPO, then there is practically no evidence that EPO works.

...“athletes and the media tend to overestimate the effects [of illegal substances], with the result that they are considered indispensable to compete with opponents who may use the same methods/substances.”…

…a method of taking oral testosterone which involved using micro-doses diluted in olive oil, something which he says “could not have more than a placebo effect.”

“The amount absorbed with this mode of administration and dosage are negligible and certainly have no effect on performance or recovery,”... “In the case of... after the disease, it is possible that exogenous administration of testosterone may even worsen his aerobic performances.”

...“EPO and auto-transfusions, in the manner reported... (micro-doses of EPO and 1-2 units of blood) correspond to an increase of Hb-mass by 5-10% for an endurance athlete weighing 75 kg… “Such increments of Hb-mass correspond to performance improvements in the order of 3-6%. Equal increases in Hb-mass can be achieved with appropriate periods of altitude training…"

...“Therefore Armstrong would have achieved the same level of performance without resorting to doping, also thanks to his talent which was far superior to the rivals of his era.”

...In an interview with Al Jazeera in December, Ferrari had claimed that he believed Armstrong was clean.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ferrari-armstrong-could-have-reached-the-same-level-without-doping/

I found a doctor who agrees with rekrunner and J.O.

Dr. Michele Ferrari is an Italian Doper-Cheater-Liarâ„¢.

Alex Schwazer, the 2008 50K gold medalist saw Dr. Ferrari in 2010. Alex Schwazer was banned for almost 4 years for a positive EPO test.

Renato Canova told us that the Italian Alex Schwazer was coming back in 2016 to show the entire world that he can win CLEAN.

Unfortunately, the Italian Alex Schwazer tested positive for testosterone in 2016 and is now BANNED FOR 8 YEARS.

The Italian Alex Schwazer will return in the year 2024 to show the entire world that he can win CLEAN!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2014/11/28/carolina-kostner-alex-schwazer-doping/19615169/

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/featured/doping-walkealex-schwazer-eight-year-ban-48366

That will be fun for the Italian Alex Schwazer.

http://static.fanpage.it/socialmediafanpage/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/La-Kostner-difende-il-suo-Schwazer-638x425.jpg

https://gentevip.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/kostner-caso-schwazer.jpg

Rekrunner enough of your agenda ...................and lies

beyond obvious that epo works and

that you in many of your posts are here to cover

for the doping of africans especially by comparing to european athletes.

they are not the best because they are the best

but because they dope the best , iaaf allows it and coaches enable it

ever think that the russian men are just hobbie joggers

and there just to make up numbers with no real interest in making

the top , no amount of dope going to even remotely close that gap

these africans are beyond dirty like canova . $$$$$$$$$

1.

who has the same agenda and started this whole ""psy-op "" ,

what 2-3 years ago now ..........................

as cover and portrays these athletes as supermen

how could those european athletes ever compete with these guys.......

when all an illusion and fake and amoral and disgusting

2.

might understand if your were at least from there but no your are italian

and a traitor beyond words , must really hate your fellow countrymen and

fellow europeans ,

if such a great coach ,do a salazar and go find a galen in your

native country . no interest ,only in deceiving people and monetary gain

how did china go for you , or your bank balance

3.

who is invested in the whole business directly

who provides the dope , who provides the cover .

you do mr canova .

destroyer of athletics.

scumbag doesnt even come close ,

iaaf ,you ,coe , all ""doping apologists "" have no time for .

time to start a different athletics federation

sorry lets make it just an associaion ,

less likely to be corrupted again

All you " epo doesnt work doping apologist" add dr ferarri to list

could you explain bekele's times during the 2000's then .

and the sure number of races and cross country races ran compared to now

epo was starting to be curtailed , so no all out use anymore .

MICERA PROVES YOU WRONG.............

1.

as said many a time one of the few who had access to the best type of epo

third generation MICERA ,

could go all out on it till summer 2008 when others ducking and diving with epo

2.

so epo doesnt work , lol .

ask webb another micera benefitter , no way would of run those times without it

3.

as for women epo works on them but to lesser extent , why not the

same divide in performance between european women and african women

and if can bag blood like paula too , WATCH OUT

[quote]rekrunner wrote:

Bundle all non-Africans together, for two decades, and none of them (clean or dirty) run faster than Vroemen's (clean or dirty) 8:04.95, only 0.45 seconds faster than Rono's 8:05.4, and almost 12 seconds slower than the world record, in the EPO-era.

Does that work for you?

When Vroemen ran the ALL TIME non-African best of 8:04.95, he was nearly 10 seconds behind the winner. Does that work for you?

In 5000m Baumann (assuming he was on steroids and EPO -- or not, doesn't matter) leads all non-Africans with a time 5.7 seconds faster than Aouiti and Moorcroft, while East Africans have lowered the record by 20+ seconds.

Does that work for you?

While you desperately want to prove effectiveness for individuals, that's completely missing the point. It's not working to bring them to the top. If non-Africans advanced so little for decades in the EPO-era, why should we think EPO helped East and North Africans so much? Either 1) EPO doesn't really work, or 2) maybe non-Africans worldwide just did not try EPO for decades.

Go back to the subject: In the case of Russians, we find many examples of drug effectiveness (EPO, HGH, and steroids) in the women, and for the men in race walking. Yet the Russians had 26 men competing in 5000m between 13:30 and 14:20, and 16 men competing in 10000m between 28:15 and 29:50, during the peak scandal years of 2011-2013. Where they clean? Maybe they WERE dirty, and EPO just didn't work? Maybe they were clean because someone believed EPO wouldn't work?[/ quote]

Good question. According to the McLaren report, there's only one reference to a male distance runner, and that's Savinova's husband, Farsonov, who's a 1500m specialist. The report states that Farsonov is a source of knowledge regarding anti-

doping counter-measures for his wife, but there is no direct evidence that he is using

PEDs to improve his own performance. For whatever reasons, the Russians may have not been doping their male distance runners, i.e., there's no evidence of test cover-ups, positive tests, passport sanctions, etc. for any of the athletes.

rjm33 wrote:

...“EPO and auto-transfusions, in the manner reported... (micro-doses of EPO and 1-2 units of blood) correspond to an increase of Hb-mass by 5-10% for an endurance athlete weighing 75 kg… “

...

...In an interview with Al Jazeera in December, Ferrari had claimed that he believed Armstrong was clean.

...

I found a doctor who agrees with rekrunner and J.O.

...

Dr. Michele Ferrari is an Italian Doper-Cheater-Liarâ„¢.

Alex Schwazer, the 2008 50K gold medalist saw Dr. Ferrari in 2010. Alex Schwazer was banned for almost 4 years for a positive EPO test.

Lots of fun. Worth repeating. Also that Rita was running an EPO-aided Boston course record. And that no non-African ever could beat drug cheat Baumann's 5000 time from 20 (!) years ago. Some as with Radcliffe's marathon time from 14 and Coe's 800 from 36 years ago.

But, as always, nothing to see here. When times get worse with increasing and improved testing, we can always call that coincidental. Year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year. Ok, I stop at ten, coincidentally, not because of 2007.

Baumann's record is truly astonishing, after watching him you wouldn't say that he is the most talented white guy you have ever seen given the likes of Galen Rupp, Evan Jager, Nick Willis or Clayton Murphy all look to possess superior athletic talent (yes I know none of them specialize over 5000m) but none of them will come close to 12:54. Bob Kennedy looked uncoordinated but with today's slow times his performances would make him a serious medal contender.

Armstrong paid Ferrari 1 Million $$$ to oversee his PED program which included both EPO & blood doping. Seems like a big waste of money if he could have achieved the same level of performance clean:

And last year Lance gave a presentation at CU where he talked about EPO and his PED history. He states that EPO provides a 10% increase in performance over 1% with just "low-octane" doping:

You absolutely need TALENT to explain top performances, not EPO.

i agree with spencer wrote:

...

the problem that all you canova lovers cant figure out is you still need TALENT

...

So basically the change in cycle occurred between 1993 and 1994. Distance records really began to fall at the same time on the track.