I agree in the sense no one cares what she identifies as. She is making it a bigger deal than it needs to be. Who cares if they don't get the pronouns correct. Announcers mispronounce peoples names all the time. I haven't heard of anyone throwing a fit their name was mispronounced. Nikki is a perfect example of a spoiled and privileged person throwing temper tantrums for attention.
Editor's note on 7/1/2024- This 3-year-old thread is getting a lot of clicks as lots of people are googling Nikki Hiltz after NBC published an article "Transgender runner Nikki Hiltz is headed to the Paris Olympics" on her making the Olympic team. The article did not explain that Hiltz's is a biological female. Hiltz also is also not on testosterone as World Athletics forbids that.
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you suck wrote:
70% of Americans support same sex marriage what are you talking about
People who were against same sex marriage:
Bill Clinton
Hillary Clinton
Barrack Obama
Joe Biden
Al Gore
John Kerry
People who were for gay marriage:
Donald Trump
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You don't seem to get it. She is telling people how to describe her when she isn't present. I can tell people that she is rude or mean or smart or nice. Imagine that she next tells the announcers that they can only use certain adjectives to describe her.
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Her sex is set. That is what her supporters keep telling us. That is what the announcers are referring to. Her gender is irrelevant. Her IQ is irrelevant. Her appearance is irrelevant. She is forcing an announcer to broadcast her gender. What if Hocker required the announcers to proclaim that he is heterosexual whenever talking about him? "The heterosexual has been having a great spring of racing."
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Dwightarm wrote:
RunRagged wrote:
No, Semenya is not a "real woman." Semenya is an XY male with a male-only DSD condition, XY 5-ARD2, which caused Semenya to be born with atypical urogenital anatomy for a male.
Semenya produces normal amounts of testosterone for a healthy male. Semenya does this because Semenya has testes.
Mostly correct except want to clarify that Semenya did not produce ‘normal amounts of testosterone for a healthy male’; her testosterone levels were about 3x a normal woman’s but still drastically lower than a normal male’s, which can be as high as 40x a normal woman’s.
Where are you getting your information from? Details revealed in the CAS decision in Semenya's lawsuit against the IAAF/WA, and other information published over the years, show that the claims you’re making about Semenya’s T levels are bunk.
Going by the standards that WA uses, the normal range for natural T in males age 18 and up is 7.7- 29.4 nmol/L. The normal range for females 18 and up is 0.2-1.68 nmol/L.
Back in 2010 when the IAAF/WA struck a deal with Semenya allowing the suspended South African runner to resume racing in women's events provided Semenya took medication to reduce Semenya's natural testosterone, the level of serum T Semenya was supposed to try to get down to was 10 nmol/L.
Most women have T levels less than one-tenth that high.
At the 2011 IAAF World Championships in Korea, medical officials from the IAAF/WA, WADA and a WADA lab in Lausanne, Switzerland took blood samples from all 849 elite athletes competing in women’s events to test their levels of testosterone and other androgens.
The world’s top competitors in women’s track & field turned out to have a median serum T level of 0.69 nmol/L - closely in line with the median level found in average non-athletic women of the same age.
This means the target T level Caster Semenya was supposed to reach when on T lowering drugs a decade ago - 10 nmol/L - is more than 14 times higher than the amount of natural T most women have.
Yet as was revealed in Semenya’s court case, even when on T-reducing medication, Semenya had trouble getting and keeping Semenya’s T down to the extremely generous 10 nmol/L target level that the IAAF set for South Africa’s so-called “golden girl” runner. A target level that was still squarely in the normal male range, and 6 times greater than the highest end of the normal female range.
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Dwightarm wrote:
RunRagged wrote:
No, Semenya is not a "real woman." Semenya is an XY male with a male-only DSD condition, XY 5-ARD2, which caused Semenya to be born with atypical urogenital anatomy for a male.
Semenya produces normal amounts of testosterone for a healthy male. Semenya does this because Semenya has testes.
Mostly correct except want to clarify that Semenya did not produce ‘normal amounts of testosterone for a healthy male’; her testosterone levels were about 3x a normal woman’s but still drastically lower than a normal male’s, which can be as high as 40x a normal woman’s.
When medical offficials with the IAAF, WADA and the WADA lab in Lausanne, Switzerland took and tested blood from the 849 athletes competing in women’s track & field at the 2011 IAAF World Championships in Daegu, South Korea, four of the athletes were already known to the medical officials as DSD athletes who had unusually high natural testosterone compared to females due to having testes.
One of them was Caster Semenya. Semenya not only competed in the 2011 World Championships in Daegu - Semenya won the gold medal in the women’s 800 there.
The results of Semenya’s blood tests have not been revealed for obvious privacy reasons. But the published data show that the four known DSD athletes in elite women's track & field tested in 2011 had serum T levels ranging from a low of 15.6 to a high of 29.3 nmol/L. Their median T level was 18.3 nmol/L. All those levels are squarely in the normal male range, which again is 7.7-29.3 nmol/L.
See Table 2:The published test results of the blood samples taken from athletes at the 2011 World Championships mean that when Semenya won the women’s 800m that year, the lowest that Semenya’s T could possibly have been was 15.6 nmol/L. But Semenya’s T might have been as high as 29.3 nmol/L. And that was at a time in Semenya’s career when Semenya was on T-lowering medication!
The upshot is that during the years when Semenya was competing and cleaning up in women's track, there's no way Semenya ever had a T level “about 3x a normal woman’s, but still drastically lower than a normal male’s” like you say. Semenya's T has always been in the normal the male range, even during the few years Semenya was on T-lowering drugs.
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sticky hills wrote:
You don't seem to get it. She is telling people how to describe her when she isn't present. I can tell people that she is rude or mean or smart or nice. Imagine that she next tells the announcers that they can only use certain adjectives to describe her.
No. I won’t imagine fake scenarios that you are upset about. I will just focus on actual things that have happened.
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I demand that you refer to me as the smartest poster on Letsrun. Now you have a real life scenario. I told everyone in my office to refer to me as the smartest person they know.
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Uhm, I'm not forcing any of you to use pronouns. How would I do that? I don't really care.
My point was almost everybody gets pissed when a biological male competes as a female. And I agree its not fair to the biological females.
But when a biological female competes as, well, a biological female, many of you are still just as pissed. Who cares what a person views themselves as, as long as they compete in their biologically born sex (and without hormone injections)?
Why is this so hard? Why is there so much hate? I believe people should have the freedom to do whatever they want without hurting anyone else.
Nobody is forcing you to do anything here or support Nikki's lifestyle choices. But why complain when she (or, the horror, they) compete as a biological female, which Nikki is. Nikki is playing by the rules that have been around forever. How does this impact you or hurt you?
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You must be a Trump supporter, why let any facts get in the way of a good argument?
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runinthewind wrote:
I agree in the sense no one cares what she identifies as. She is making it a bigger deal than it needs to be. Who cares if they don't get the pronouns correct. Announcers mispronounce peoples names all the time. I haven't heard of anyone throwing a fit their name was mispronounced. Nikki is a perfect example of a spoiled and privileged person throwing temper tantrums for attention.
Nikki definatly isn't transgender,despite what she says. If she were trans,she'd be taking male hormones,use male pronouns,and become a man. She would then be a HE, not a they. I'm lgbtq so i know. Many true trans people would not accept her as trans. Non binary isn't trans.
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jeff tallon wrote:
runinthewind wrote:
I agree in the sense no one cares what she identifies as. She is making it a bigger deal than it needs to be. Who cares if they don't get the pronouns correct. Announcers mispronounce peoples names all the time. I haven't heard of anyone throwing a fit their name was mispronounced. Nikki is a perfect example of a spoiled and privileged person throwing temper tantrums for attention.
Nikki definatly isn't transgender,despite what she says. If she were trans,she'd be taking male hormones,use male pronouns,and become a man. She would then be a HE, not a they. I'm lgbtq so i know. Many true trans people would not accept her as trans. Non binary isn't trans.
Which letter are you?
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Stating the obvious wrote:
Why is this so hard? Why is there so much hate? I believe people should have the freedom to do whatever they want without hurting anyone else.
Because LR is full of the weakest, most whiny crybaby incels possible. No women will ever even talk to them, so they get mad as hell online and attack anything that doesn't reinforce this outdated, regressive world view where even losers like them could succeed and thrive.
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Former Never Trumper wrote:
jeff tallon wrote:
Nikki definatly isn't transgender,despite what she says. If she were trans,she'd be taking male hormones,use male pronouns,and become a man. She would then be a HE, not a they. I'm lgbtq so i know. Many true trans people would not accept her as trans. Non binary isn't trans.
Which letter are you?
Im a G and a Q, and proud of it.
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Stating the obvious wrote:
Dwightarm wrote:
Non binary means neither male, nor female.
zoomie and others, what is the problem here?
How Nikki identifies herself is how they feel (non-binary, bi whatever) and as far as I know isn't taking hormone therapy but living with the body they were born with. Why do you care what else is in Nikki's head or feelings? Why would anyone have an objection to Nikki competing as a biological female?
A biological male that is transitioning to a female competing as a female is problematic because of inherent competitive advantages. But why throw shade on Nikki who is still figuring things out for themselves ?
Herself?
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considering the entire universe can be broken down into 0’s and 1’s in an equation, Nicki is somehow more complicated than the UNIVERSE. Just take a minute to think about that
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jeff tallon wrote:
runinthewind wrote:
I agree in the sense no one cares what she identifies as. She is making it a bigger deal than it needs to be. Who cares if they don't get the pronouns correct. Announcers mispronounce peoples names all the time. I haven't heard of anyone throwing a fit their name was mispronounced. Nikki is a perfect example of a spoiled and privileged person throwing temper tantrums for attention.
Nikki definatly isn't transgender,despite what she says. If she were trans,she'd be taking male hormones,use male pronouns,and become a man. She would then be a HE, not a they. I'm lgbtq so i know. Many true trans people would not accept her as trans. Non binary isn't trans.
Non-binary is still trans, because non-binary people still experience dysphoria about their birth sex, but you're right, many true trans people wouldn't accept Nikki. Many would.
This divide has always existed in the trans community, and being trans doesn't mean you'll automatically agree with all other trans people about all aspects of that experience. (Even saying that makes it sound as ridiculous as it is.)
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translucent wrote:
jeff tallon wrote:
Nikki definatly isn't transgender,despite what she says. If she were trans,she'd be taking male hormones,use male pronouns,and become a man. She would then be a HE, not a they. I'm lgbtq so i know. Many true trans people would not accept her as trans. Non binary isn't trans.
Non-binary is still trans, because non-binary people still experience dysphoria about their birth sex, but you're right, many true trans people wouldn't accept Nikki. Many would.
This divide has always existed in the trans community, and being trans doesn't mean you'll automatically agree with all other trans people about all aspects of that experience. (Even saying that makes it sound as ridiculous as it is.)
I know one thing, binary or non-binary or trans or gay or heterosexual, or whatever...OLYMPIAN.
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Non-binaries should have picked a new name instead of co-opting they/them. It's never going to sound right. And calling someone (you know) a they/them to that person's face makes us all have to do a context switch in our brains that goes against everything we've ever been taught.
Pick a different f***ing name for yourselves.
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