I'll answer your question after you give me a thoughtful (as I described that word) response to Post 362.
I’ll be your huckleberry. Lol Even though I dissected these arguments already.
Jordan and LeBron had high peaks. Lebron just sustained that high peak longer. e.g. 21 times All-NBA - 21 of 23 seasons. Jordan achieved it an impressive 11 times in 15 seasons. Greatness sustained versus greatness attained.
The “LeBron wasn’t in the driver’s seat” when Curry/analytics changed the game makes zero sense. The other poster was right. LeBron thriving in different evolutions of the game shows how great he is. Jordan thrived in one style of play - plod down the court, set up half court, post-up. It’s a minor point, but one that clearly goes to LeBron.
Pippen was a better teammate than LeBron ever had. Easy to see when Jordan left and the Bulls won just two fewer games than with Jordan the year before and had same the playoff exit when Jordan came back the next year. Pippen was the perfect compliment to Jordan. 7 time All-NBA and 10x All-Defensive team. Did Jordan ever get out of the first round without Pippen? Did he ever win a playoff game without Pippen? Look at the “success” LeBron’s top players had after they stopped playing together. Kyrie leaves? LeBron still takes Cavs to finals. Have we heard from Kyrie since? Love? Never an AS again. Wade? No more All-NBA teams, no MVP votes, no All-Defensive teams… AD? On the court-great. Too bad his nickname became street clothes that part of his career. He did get AD a title which he never sniffed before playing with LeBron. Again, LeBron has made players better through his career and players didn’t have the team or individual success when they stopped playing with LeBron. Advantage, clearly LeBron.
Today, I responded already to your comment that LeBron had great coaches. It’s similar to the players LeBron has had success with. How many of LeBron’s coaches have won a title without him. How about Jordan’s coaches? Have they had any success without him? Lol.
Yep. 6>4. It’s about all Jordan has over Lebron. If that is your sole consideration for GOAT then congrats on believing Russell is the GOAT. Personally, I look at a lot of factors when shaping the GOAT opinion. And now it’s really not just an opinion anymore. Lebron is the GOAT. I think you were the one who placed a lot of weight on nicknames. Can’t go wrong with someone with the nickname LeGOAT. lol.
Thank you for finally writing a thoughtful response.
I admit you make a good point about 21 All-NBA seasons vs 11. The nuance with that is there are different levels of All-NBA: First Team, Second Team, and Third Team. When talking about who is the GOAT, we really should just be looking at the First Team because that team represents the top tier in the league. Having seasons as the 8th or 9th best player in the league doesn't make someone the GOAT. Only seasons when someone is the best player in the league or at least top tier makes someone the GOAT.
Going by the First Team, LeBron leads 13 to 10. The difference is obviously explained by Jordan missing most of one year to injury and then missing almost 2 full years in the middle of his prime. But that was his choice to play baseball. Credit and point to LeBron for staying in the league throughout his prime and beyond.
If we're looking at end of year recognition, we shouldn't stop at All-NBA. Let's check the other categories:
MVP wins: Jordan 5, LeBron 4 Defensive Player of the Year: Jordan 1, LeBron 0 All-NBA Defensive First Teams: Jordan 9, LeBron 5
When considering all the categories recognizing the very best in the league, the scale tips in Jordan's favor.
Let's look at these other areas:
Style of play: it's not true that Jordan only thrived in one style of play. In Jordan's first 6 years in the league, the pace of play was actually just as fast or faster than it is now, at 98-102 possessions per game (this year was 99). Players didn't shoot lots of 3s or have as much freedom of movement and space as they do today, but teams liked to get up and down the court fast. The best example of that was the Showtime Lakers.
During Jordan's first three-peat, the pace was 95-96, which is on par with the 2015-2017 seasons. During Jordan's second three-peat, the pace was 90-91, the same as five out of LeBron's first six seasons. So they both thrived in different styles of play. The difference is Jordan was more influential in shifting the style of play in his favor. Advantage Jordan.
Teammates: Pippen never led a team to the Finals without Jordan. Wade won a championship before LeBron teamed up with him. Luka and Kyrie went to the Finals without LeBron. Jordan always led his championship teams in scoring. LeBron had the luxury of relying on AD to lead the Lakers' title team in scoring, while also relying on AD to anchor the defense.
Coaches: Spoelstra and Brown have led teams to the Finals without LeBron. Don't LeBron fans value going to the Finals? Lue and Spoelstra were both coaches on the 2024 USA Olympic Team. Only highly regarded coaches get selected for those roles. Brown won Coach of the Year in Sacramento. That's a huge achievement when you consider how awful that franchise has been.
Teammates + Coaches: The "LeBron Rules" poster tried to make it sound as if LeBron was somehow hindered by playing on different teams with different players and coaches. Let's be real. LeBron intentionally switched teams to upgrade his situation. Leaving Cleveland to go to the Heat enabled him to win two titles. When the Heat couldn't win titles anymore, he returned to Cleveland and got another one thanks to Kyrie hitting the championship-winning shot while LeBron stood by and watched. When the well dried up in Cleveland, LeBron left for LA and got paired up with AD. He's been fortunate to play with great players and under great coaches.
Rings: I never said 6 > 4 was my sole consideration. I said it's a trump card along with lots of other considerations. I've mentioned over 30 in this thread.
Nicknames: Jordan's nicknames on his Basketball Reference include G.O.A.T., His Airness, Air Jordan, Superman, Captain Marvel, Magic Mike, and Black Jesus. I'll give Jordan the nod in the nickname category.
Career Summary: I've said before that Jordan was the better two-way player who achieved more individual and team success in a shorter time span.
Another way to look at it is through a 1-10 scale. Jordan was a 10 when he was with the Bulls. In fact, his Box Plus Minus for those years was a 10.2. LeBron through the age when Jordan completed his second three-peat was more like a 9.5. That's exactly what his Box Plus Minus was from ages 21-34 (the same ages as when Jordan was with the Bulls): 9.5. LeBron was great, but not Jordan level.
Jordan was a 10.2. LeBron was a 9.5. That means LeBron had to make up the deficit starting at age 35 by playing at a 10 level or higher. Did he? No. He played great in winning his fourth title, but since then, LeBron's level of play has declined.
In the last six years, LeBron has averaged only 59.5 games per season, and his Box Plus Minus for that span has only been 6.2. He hasn't led the Lakers back to the Finals, and he hasn't made All-NBA First Team. He plays incredibly well for a 40 year old and he's accumulated terrific counting stats, but he hasn't been one of the top 5 players in the league in the last six years. The Lakers are now better on defense when he sits.
I commend LeBron for his longevity, but his level of play the last six years doesn't make him greater than Jordan. Being the GOAT isn't about who was the best 40 year old. It's about who was the greatest, period. Jordan is still the GOAT.
Thank you for finally writing a thoughtful response.
I admit you make a good point about 21 All-NBA seasons vs 11. The nuance with that is there are different levels of All-NBA: First Team, Second Team, and Third Team. When talking about who is the GOAT, we really should just be looking at the First Team because that team represents the top tier in the league. Having seasons as the 8th or 9th best player in the league doesn't make someone the GOAT. Only seasons when someone is the best player in the league or at least top tier makes someone the GOAT.
Going by the First Team, LeBron leads 13 to 10. The difference is obviously explained by Jordan missing most of one year to injury and then missing almost 2 full years in the middle of his prime. But that was his choice to play baseball. Credit and point to LeBron for staying in the league throughout his prime and beyond.
If we're looking at end of year recognition, we shouldn't stop at All-NBA. Let's check the other categories:
MVP wins: Jordan 5, LeBron 4 Defensive Player of the Year: Jordan 1, LeBron 0 All-NBA Defensive First Teams: Jordan 9, LeBron 5
When considering all the categories recognizing the very best in the league, the scale tips in Jordan's favor.
Let's look at these other areas:
Style of play: it's not true that Jordan only thrived in one style of play. In Jordan's first 6 years in the league, the pace of play was actually just as fast or faster than it is now, at 98-102 possessions per game (this year was 99). Players didn't shoot lots of 3s or have as much freedom of movement and space as they do today, but teams liked to get up and down the court fast. The best example of that was the Showtime Lakers.
During Jordan's first three-peat, the pace was 95-96, which is on par with the 2015-2017 seasons. During Jordan's second three-peat, the pace was 90-91, the same as five out of LeBron's first six seasons. So they both thrived in different styles of play. The difference is Jordan was more influential in shifting the style of play in his favor. Advantage Jordan.
Teammates: Pippen never led a team to the Finals without Jordan. Wade won a championship before LeBron teamed up with him. Luka and Kyrie went to the Finals without LeBron. Jordan always led his championship teams in scoring. LeBron had the luxury of relying on AD to lead the Lakers' title team in scoring, while also relying on AD to anchor the defense.
Coaches: Spoelstra and Brown have led teams to the Finals without LeBron. Don't LeBron fans value going to the Finals? Lue and Spoelstra were both coaches on the 2024 USA Olympic Team. Only highly regarded coaches get selected for those roles. Brown won Coach of the Year in Sacramento. That's a huge achievement when you consider how awful that franchise has been.
Teammates + Coaches: The "LeBron Rules" poster tried to make it sound as if LeBron was somehow hindered by playing on different teams with different players and coaches. Let's be real. LeBron intentionally switched teams to upgrade his situation. Leaving Cleveland to go to the Heat enabled him to win two titles. When the Heat couldn't win titles anymore, he returned to Cleveland and got another one thanks to Kyrie hitting the championship-winning shot while LeBron stood by and watched. When the well dried up in Cleveland, LeBron left for LA and got paired up with AD. He's been fortunate to play with great players and under great coaches.
Rings: I never said 6 > 4 was my sole consideration. I said it's a trump card along with lots of other considerations. I've mentioned over 30 in this thread.
Nicknames: Jordan's nicknames on his Basketball Reference include G.O.A.T., His Airness, Air Jordan, Superman, Captain Marvel, Magic Mike, and Black Jesus. I'll give Jordan the nod in the nickname category.
Career Summary: I've said before that Jordan was the better two-way player who achieved more individual and team success in a shorter time span.
Another way to look at it is through a 1-10 scale. Jordan was a 10 when he was with the Bulls. In fact, his Box Plus Minus for those years was a 10.2. LeBron through the age when Jordan completed his second three-peat was more like a 9.5. That's exactly what his Box Plus Minus was from ages 21-34 (the same ages as when Jordan was with the Bulls): 9.5. LeBron was great, but not Jordan level.
Jordan was a 10.2. LeBron was a 9.5. That means LeBron had to make up the deficit starting at age 35 by playing at a 10 level or higher. Did he? No. He played great in winning his fourth title, but since then, LeBron's level of play has declined.
In the last six years, LeBron has averaged only 59.5 games per season, and his Box Plus Minus for that span has only been 6.2. He hasn't led the Lakers back to the Finals, and he hasn't made All-NBA First Team. He plays incredibly well for a 40 year old and he's accumulated terrific counting stats, but he hasn't been one of the top 5 players in the league in the last six years. The Lakers are now better on defense when he sits.
I commend LeBron for his longevity, but his level of play the last six years doesn't make him greater than Jordan. Being the GOAT isn't about who was the best 40 year old. It's about who was the greatest, period. Jordan is still the GOAT.
Why must there always be a “but” when talking about Jordan?
Pretty obvious you didn't find it anywhere and just made it up.
do you disagree?
Yes, I disagree. I've watched both for their entire careers too. I don't recall a large percentage of Jordan's 3s being in the jacked up category. I see LeBron do it regularly.
Basketball Reference's shooting data has the percentage of made shots that were assisted by a teammate. It only goes back to 1996-1997, so we can't see all of Jordan's percentages, but we can at least see his last two years with the Bulls. Here are the percentages of his made 3s that were assisted:
A much higher percentage of Jordan's 3s came off passes from teammates. Based on that, I think it's safe to say LeBron has jacked up 3s at a much higher rate than Jordan did.
Yes, I disagree. I've watched both for their entire careers too. I don't recall a large percentage of Jordan's 3s being in the jacked up category. I see LeBron do it regularly.
Basketball Reference's shooting data has the percentage of made shots that were assisted by a teammate. It only goes back to 1996-1997, so we can't see all of Jordan's percentages, but we can at least see his last two years with the Bulls. Here are the percentages of his made 3s that were assisted:
A much higher percentage of Jordan's 3s came off passes from teammates. Based on that, I think it's safe to say LeBron has jacked up 3s at a much higher rate than Jordan did.
At least we both agree that LeBron is the far better shooter.
At least we both agree that LeBron is the far better shooter.
That's not the conclusion I draw. Here are their shooting percentages by distance zone beyond 10 feet from the basket:
10-16 feet*: Jordan 44.4%, LeBron 37.4% 16 feet-3pt*: Jordan 45.3%, LeBron 38.6% 3pt: Jordan 32.7%, LeBron 34.8%
*We only have 4 years of 10-16 feet and 16 feet-3pt zone data for Jordan, but this gives us a good enough idea.
Jordan was a much better shooter from 10-16 feet and from 16 feet to the 3pt line. Jordan was also a vastly superior free throw shooter: Jordan 83.5%, LeBron 73.7%. LeBron was only slightly better from 3, despite heavily working on that part of his game compared to it being an afterthought for Jordan.
Yes, I disagree. I've watched both for their entire careers too. I don't recall a large percentage of Jordan's 3s being in the jacked up category. I see LeBron do it regularly.
Basketball Reference's shooting data has the percentage of made shots that were assisted by a teammate. It only goes back to 1996-1997, so we can't see all of Jordan's percentages, but we can at least see his last two years with the Bulls. Here are the percentages of his made 3s that were assisted:
A much higher percentage of Jordan's 3s came off passes from teammates. Based on that, I think it's safe to say LeBron has jacked up 3s at a much higher rate than Jordan did.
At least we both agree that LeBron is the far better shooter.
LOL- yeah, he’s such a better shooter that his lifetime FT% is 73%, while MJ’s is 84%. (Your statements are delusional.)
As all the videos I posted PROVE (STATS, FACTS) BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, MJ is the better shooter BY FAR. There are actual stats that show how poor of a shooter LBJ is “outside of 3 feet” from the basket. And he’s even worse in the clutch (again- watch the videos I’ve posted). MJ in the clutch is as good or slightly better than he is all the time. That’s GOAT stuff.
Bottom line: Being the GOAT is all about being EFFECTIVE. Winning championships when you get there. Winning scoring titles. Winning defensive player of the year. Wanting to take the critical shots, and making the critical shots. This is the definition of MJ.
LBJ on the other hand, has lost 6 Finals (including two in disgusting fashion), is never the league’s leading scorer (in a deliberately defense-less era of basketball, mind you), shoots quite badly “from outside 3 feet” AND in the clutch (down around 20-25%), and is known for not really wanting to take the critical shots. That’s not GOAT material. Sorry. He’s been very good and played a long time- that’s it.
At least we both agree that LeBron is the far better shooter.
That's not the conclusion I draw. Here are their shooting percentages by distance zone beyond 10 feet from the basket:
10-16 feet*: Jordan 44.4%, LeBron 37.4% 16 feet-3pt*: Jordan 45.3%, LeBron 38.6% 3pt: Jordan 32.7%, LeBron 34.8%
*We only have 4 years of 10-16 feet and 16 feet-3pt zone data for Jordan, but this gives us a good enough idea.
Jordan was a much better shooter from 10-16 feet and from 16 feet to the 3pt line. Jordan was also a vastly superior free throw shooter: Jordan 83.5%, LeBron 73.7%. LeBron was only slightly better from 3, despite heavily working on that part of his game compared to it being an afterthought for Jordan.
Overall, Jordan was the far better shooter.
LeBron has a higher 3pt fg% despite “jacking up” 3s compared to Jordan shooting a lower percentage taking “available” 3s. You would think with LeBron just jacking them up and Jordan only taking high quality 3pters, Jordan would shoot better if he was actually a better shooter.
LeBron has a higher 3pt%
Lebron has a higher fg%
lebron has a higher effective fg%
lebron has a higher Ts%
It’s obvious LeBron is a better shooter. lol.
Again, you have to use all these qualifiers for Jordan because he can’t stand on his own. Telling.
LeBron has a higher 3pt fg% despite “jacking up” 3s compared to Jordan shooting a lower percentage taking “available” 3s. You would think with LeBron just jacking them up and Jordan only taking high quality 3pters, Jordan would shoot better if he was actually a better shooter.
LeBron has a higher 3pt%
Lebron has a higher fg%
lebron has a higher effective fg%
lebron has a higher Ts%
It’s obvious LeBron is a better shooter. lol.
Again, you have to use all these qualifiers for Jordan because he can’t stand on his own. Telling.
lol, no. Giannis has a higher FG%, higher effective FG%, and higher TS% than LeBron. Would you say that makes Giannis a better shooter than LeBron? Of course not. Big men almost always have higher FG percentages because a larger proportion of their shots are coming close to the basket.
LeBron has spent countless hours working on his 3 point game, yet his percentage is only 2 points higher than someone who didn't care about it. Kind of embarrassing when you think about it.
Jordan was clearly a better overall shooter than LeBron.
LeBron has a higher 3pt fg% despite “jacking up” 3s compared to Jordan shooting a lower percentage taking “available” 3s. You would think with LeBron just jacking them up and Jordan only taking high quality 3pters, Jordan would shoot better if he was actually a better shooter.
LeBron has a higher 3pt%
Lebron has a higher fg%
lebron has a higher effective fg%
lebron has a higher Ts%
It’s obvious LeBron is a better shooter. lol.
Again, you have to use all these qualifiers for Jordan because he can’t stand on his own. Telling.
lol, no. Giannis has a higher FG%, higher effective FG%, and higher TS% than LeBron. Would you say that makes Giannis a better shooter than LeBron? Of course not. Big men almost always have higher FG percentages because a larger proportion of their shots are coming close to the basket.
LeBron has spent countless hours working on his 3 point game, yet his percentage is only 2 points higher than someone who didn't care about it. Kind of embarrassing when you think about it.
Jordan was clearly a better overall shooter than LeBron.
How about higher 3pt% for Giannis?
Blame LeBron for being better by practicing. And credit Jordan for taking inefficient shots. lol.
Always need a qualifier for Jordan. “If you count this or don’t count this….or if Jordan only practiced…” lol.
LeBron has a higher 3pt fg% despite “jacking up” 3s compared to Jordan shooting a lower percentage taking “available” 3s. You would think with LeBron just jacking them up and Jordan only taking high quality 3pters, Jordan would shoot better if he was actually a better shooter.
LeBron has a higher 3pt%
Lebron has a higher fg%
lebron has a higher effective fg%
lebron has a higher Ts%
It’s obvious LeBron is a better shooter. lol.
Again, you have to use all these qualifiers for Jordan because he can’t stand on his own. Telling.
lol, no. Giannis has a higher FG%, higher effective FG%, and higher TS% than LeBron. Would you say that makes Giannis a better shooter than LeBron? Of course not. Big men almost always have higher FG percentages because a larger proportion of their shots are coming close to the basket.
LeBron has spent countless hours working on his 3 point game, yet his percentage is only 2 points higher than someone who didn't care about it. Kind of embarrassing when you think about it.
Jordan was clearly a better overall shooter than LeBron.
LeBron is a big man? He spent more of his career on the perimeter than Jordan. And was a better shooter, obviously.
I’llwait for some other qualifier for Jordan to try and make him as great as LeBron. Lol.
lol, no. Giannis has a higher FG%, higher effective FG%, and higher TS% than LeBron. Would you say that makes Giannis a better shooter than LeBron? Of course not. Big men almost always have higher FG percentages because a larger proportion of their shots are coming close to the basket.
LeBron has spent countless hours working on his 3 point game, yet his percentage is only 2 points higher than someone who didn't care about it. Kind of embarrassing when you think about it.
Jordan was clearly a better overall shooter than LeBron.
How about higher 3pt% for Giannis?
Blame LeBron for being better by practicing. And credit Jordan for taking inefficient shots. lol.
Always need a qualifier for Jordan. “If you count this or don’t count this….or if Jordan only practiced…” lol.
You're the one using a qualifier by focusing on 3 point shooting and ignoring the other types of shots.
10-16 feet: Jordan much better 16 feet - 3pt: Jordan much better 3 pt: LeBron slightly better Free throws: Jordan much better
Anyone looking at that objectively would conclude Jordan was the better overall shooter.
Yep. 6>4. It’s about all Jordan has over Lebron. If that is your sole consideration for GOAT then congrats on believing Russell is the GOAT. Personally,
Russel is the greatest. It's a team game and the guy who mastered playing basketball the way to win games is the greatest. The way he played, his teams won everything
Blame LeBron for being better by practicing. And credit Jordan for taking inefficient shots. lol.
Always need a qualifier for Jordan. “If you count this or don’t count this….or if Jordan only practiced…” lol.
You're the one using a qualifier by focusing on 3 point shooting and ignoring the other types of shots.
10-16 feet: Jordan much better 16 feet - 3pt: Jordan much better 3 pt: LeBron slightly better Free throws: Jordan much better
Anyone looking at that objectively would conclude Jordan was the better overall shooter.
Qualifier engaged again.
Lebron better at 3 of the 5 distances and the one that defines a better shooter - 3pters. And that’s even with Jordan taking “available” 3s and Lebron just jacking them up. lol. Lebron higher fg%, higher effective fg%, higher tos% and the most commonly used metric to define better shooters-3pt fg%. Man, Jordan was even terrible at shooting layups. lol.
No question LeBron is the better shooter.
Next thing you know you’ll be saying Jordan is the better passer.