Awesome Jakob Ingebrigtsen profile in The Times: When I'm done, I want there to be no doubt I'm the GOAT.

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

I agree in everything you are saying in this post, except how you estimate Jakob’s half marathon capacity…

Just for the records: Me being a fan of the Ingebrigtsens / the Norwegian means only that I’m a fan of their training / racing project, and some of their views on training and racing. I (like you I suppose) want to see how their philosophy manifests it self in times and achievements throughout the years -I really think they have found something revolutionary, and I think it’s the training more than talent. And as a Norwegian it’s especially interesting to watch how a awkwardly small country all of a sudden has two candidates to the price “athlete of the year” (Warholm / Ingebrigtsen) year after year…

I like outliers and special features in athletics, and therefore both Ingebrigtsen and Nordås. But I also really liked what Hassan has been doing -how she fell from a medal, and just smiled. And took the blame her self (didn’t run straight). And how Gidey supported her afterwards. And that Tsegay stood (ran) on her rights. And how Cheptegei and Gidey and even Bekele (once) dared to hit the wall in xc. And that Kipyegon said she was a little embarrassed that Gidey had to do all the work in the former’s 5000m WR race. And that Tsegay eventually got her WR (5000m) after years of tough openings in the 1500m.. And so on and so on.. And I would love to have McSweyn winning a championship with the fastest home stretch, just to show it’s all about the strength!

I agree in your estimate of Jakob sub 12.40 -there’s so many races and indications for this. And I think such an estimate aligns with parameters from testing and training and lactate readings. But to extend this to predict 10000m and half marathon times seems too much of a stretch. Because there are some strong indications that Jakob may be a really (of course relatively) poor both 10000m and half marathon runner:

1. Jakob has never raced any really good distance runners over 6, 8 or 10k (xc, road or track) or above!

2. In 2019 Jakob probably could have run 12.55 or faster (did 13.02 twice). But in his two longer runs he flopped grossly: 27.54 road 10 k, and 8 km WC U20: placed 12th against totally unmerited runners (47 sec behind guys with 13.30 and 28-+ pr’s that season, or f.ex 61+ half marathon). He was totally destroyed by guys 2 min away from the WR in the 10000m; athletes who weren’t good enough for the senior ranks…!

3. I think Jakob has a vision about how training and racing and progression should be when it comes to himself. And when this vision seems to collide with reality he seems to think he can fix the whole thing with small adjustments (f.ex admitting that a marathon WR is something he isn’t sure of; only that he is going to try to break it… But no admission about the rest of the events)…

Maybe an athlete theoretically can have the WR in both the 1500m and the (half) marathon. But maybe this is more determined by genes than by training than Jakob thinks..?

4. Jakob reminds me of Cheptegei -a playfulness and (maybe) an overestimation of own abilities: The latter runs nearly 2 min behind the WR in the half, and in the full marathon he hits the wall, and can’t even walk afterwards without assistance (Pretty much like Jakob after some of his races!).

5. You mentioned his 8k childhood race -good of course, but no reason to think he was better here than in the 5k’s at the same time (that he ran fast in courses of 200m + elevation)…
Jakob has surprised me a lot of times. And I hope he does this again in the longer runs. In some surroundings he can be extremely strong - you mentioned the Nationals in 2017 (Jakob 16). In the 5000m he toyed with 13.20 runner Moen. And this despite he the day before pr’ed in the 800m (somewhere in central Europe -nearly won the race)…

I don’t know if the ability to recover super fast says something about 10k / half marathon capacity. And even Jakob is human -in the 2023 Bowerman 3000m he clearly wasn’t fully recovered… But I really hope he dusts all my predictions opposed to yours here. -Personally I think there’s a stronger possibility for Jakob to really crush some WR’s 1500-5000m, than to even run decent in the 10k and +…

Armstronglivs wrote:

Koltrast wrote:

Nope, that's what your logic is. Cooking consists of more than one dish, running consists of more than one event. Being a surgeon or a lawyer has very little in common with being a rocket scientist. Bolt doesn't have to do anything else to be the best sprinter on the planet, but to be the best runner overall he has to be able to run more than 400m without passing out. I haven't disagreed that you most often than not have to be a specialist to be the best at one event.

Is the best player in the NBA the person who's the best at dunking but can't pass, shoot or rebound? Or is it the person who excels at as many different aspects of playing basketball as possible?

You keep making false comparisons. Basketball has no relationship to the specialised nature of elite running. My point about a rocket scientist is that it has no relationship with any other set of skills. Like a top runner. You are as dense as a row of bricks.

Armstronglivs wrote:

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

I agree in everything you are saying in this post, except how you estimate Jakob’s half marathon capacity…

Just for the records: Me being a fan of the Ingebrigtsens / the Norwegian means only that I’m a fan of their training / racing project, and some of their views on training and racing. I (like you I suppose) want to see how their philosophy manifests it self in times and achievements throughout the years -I really think they have found something revolutionary, and I think it’s the training more than talent. And as a Norwegian it’s especially interesting to watch how a awkwardly small country all of a sudden has two candidates to the price “athlete of the year” (Warholm / Ingebrigtsen) year after year…

I like outliers and special features in athletics, and therefore both Ingebrigtsen and Nordås. But I also really liked what Hassan has been doing -how she fell from a medal, and just smiled. And took the blame her self (didn’t run straight). And how Gidey supported her afterwards. And that Tsegay stood (ran) on her rights. And how Cheptegei and Gidey and even Bekele (once) dared to hit the wall in xc. And that Kipyegon said she was a little embarrassed that Gidey had to do all the work in the former’s 5000m WR race. And that Tsegay eventually got her WR (5000m) after years of tough openings in the 1500m.. And so on and so on.. And I would love to have McSweyn winning a championship with the fastest home stretch, just to show it’s all about the strength!

I agree in your estimate of Jakob sub 12.40 -there’s so many races and indications for this. And I think such an estimate aligns with parameters from testing and training and lactate readings. But to extend this to predict 10000m and half marathon times seems too much of a stretch. Because there are some strong indications that Jakob may be a really (of course relatively) poor both 10000m and half marathon runner:

1. Jakob has never raced any really good distance runners over 6, 8 or 10k (xc, road or track) or above!

2. In 2019 Jakob probably could have run 12.55 or faster (did 13.02 twice). But in his two longer runs he flopped grossly: 27.54 road 10 k, and 8 km WC U20: placed 12th against totally unmerited runners (47 sec behind guys with 13.30 and 28-+ pr’s that season, or f.ex 61+ half marathon). He was totally destroyed by guys 2 min away from the WR in the 10000m; athletes who weren’t good enough for the senior ranks…!

3. I think Jakob has a vision about how training and racing and progression should be when it comes to himself. And when this vision seems to collide with reality he seems to think he can fix the whole thing with small adjustments (f.ex admitting that a marathon WR is something he isn’t sure of; only that he is going to try to break it… But no admission about the rest of the events)…

Maybe an athlete theoretically can have the WR in both the 1500m and the (half) marathon. But maybe this is more determined by genes than by training than Jakob thinks..?

4. Jakob reminds me of Cheptegei -a playfulness and (maybe) an overestimation of own abilities: The latter runs nearly 2 min behind the WR in the half, and in the full marathon he hits the wall, and can’t even walk afterwards without assistance (Pretty much like Jakob after some of his races!).

5. You mentioned his 8k childhood race -good of course, but no reason to think he was better here than in the 5k’s at the same time (that he ran fast in courses of 200m + elevation)…
Jakob has surprised me a lot of times. And I hope he does this again in the longer runs. In some surroundings he can be extremely strong - you mentioned the Nationals in 2017 (Jakob 16). In the 5000m he toyed with 13.20 runner Moen. And this despite he the day before pr’ed in the 800m (somewhere in central Europe -nearly won the race)…

I don’t know if the ability to recover super fast says something about 10k / half marathon capacity. And even Jakob is human -in the 2023 Bowerman 3000m he clearly wasn’t fully recovered… But I really hope he dusts all my predictions opposed to yours here. -Personally I think there’s a stronger possibility for Jakob to really crush some WR’s 1500-5000m, than to even run decent in the 10k and +…

Everything about how good Jakob is is based on his own inflated view of abilities and not what he has actually achieved.

Armstronglivs wrote:

7765656747863 wrote:

You answered the question already several times: no, for you Ingebrigtsen is not the best at age 22 from 1500m to 5k.

Just when asked to give a single name of someone who has done better (you can't give a single name) the question becomes stupid for you.

Before admitting to be wrong on something you change the subject. We have seen this unbelievable behaviour again and again. From a close to 80 years old man who has followed athletics closely since over 6 decades (and recently already has learned how to write times correctly).

I didn't say what you claim. I have indicated it is an arbitrary and misplaced measure of where he stands in the history of the sport. Hence I said Elliott, as a 1500m specialist, was a greater runner at the same age as Jakob. And he will still likely be greater than Jakob when the Norwegian's career is over, because Jakob won't retire undefeated over his best distance, as Elliott did.

Since you have also said there can be "no clear measure" of what constitutes greatness then you are in no position to dispute what I say. You're the "hobby jogger" of posters here.

7765656747863 wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

I didn't say what you claim. I have indicated it is an arbitrary and misplaced measure of where he stands in the history of the sport. Hence I said Elliott, as a 1500m specialist, was a greater runner at the same age as Jakob. And he will still likely be greater than Jakob when the Norwegian's career is over, because Jakob won't retire undefeated over his best distance, as Elliott did.

Since you have also said there can be "no clear measure" of what constitutes greatness then you are in no position to dispute what I say. You're the "hobby jogger" of posters here.

I havn't claimed here that you have said something at all. But since you don't read the posts you reply to you can't know.

Just that he is the best at age 22 from 1500m to 5k. You still struggle with this easy claim? But you have said several times that it's not true. Without even understanding it at all?
Every poster interested in the subject would now give the name of a runner he or she thinks has done better from 150m to 5k than Ingebrigtsen at age 22. You change the subject - again and again.

Armstronglivs wrote:

7765656747863 wrote:

There CAN'T be a clear measure, Dumb. A few pages ago you have agreed to this, now you have forgotten already your own point of view. Your title of letsdumber number 1 is really well deserved.

But you are the one dying in a ditch about Jakob being the best over 1500-5k at 22 when you have conceded there is "no clear measure" of what is the running GOAT. So your argument for that achievement offers no proof to the point of the thread, which is about Jakob's goal of becoming the GOAT. In fact it has no direct relevance to that question; it is merely a matter of your personal obsession. If there is no definitive answer to the question of what is the distance running GOAT - as you have conceded - then it must also mean that my assessment is as valid as yours or anyone else's. Further, by saying there is "no clear measure" of this question you have also effectively conceded my point I made earlier that the definition of "greatness" in the sport depends on your criteria used and your point of view. You haven't realised it but you have simply come around to echoing my own argument. But keep at it; it is at least entertaining to see someone repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot.

Armstronglivs wrote:

7765656747863 wrote:

I havn't claimed here that you have said something at all. But since you don't read the posts you reply to you can't know.

Just that he is the best at age 22 from 1500m to 5k. You still struggle with this easy claim? But you have said several times that it's not true. Without even understanding it at all?
Every poster interested in the subject would now give the name of a runner he or she thinks has done better from 150m to 5k than Ingebrigtsen at age 22. You change the subject - again and again.

1. It likely isn't true but is debatable. I am not interested in debating it.

2. It is completely irrelevant to the question of whether he will become the running GOAT, which is his goal and the subject of the thread.

The latter point you fail to grasp, while conceding there can be "no clear measure" of what is the GOAT. So, without realising it, your fixation and that of others on point 1 above is a mere diversion from the subject of the thread as stated by Jakob. It is irrelevant, as I said. But since you can't follow even your own arguments you won't be able to see that.

7765656747863 wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

But you are the one dying in a ditch about Jakob being the best over 1500-5k at 22 when you have conceded there is "no clear measure" of what is the running GOAT. So your argument for that achievement offers no proof to the point of the thread, which is about Jakob's goal of becoming the GOAT. In fact it has no direct relevance to that question; it is merely a matter of your personal obsession. If there is no definitive answer to the question of what is the distance running GOAT - as you have conceded - then it must also mean that my assessment is as valid as yours or anyone else's. Further, by saying there is "no clear measure" of this question you have also effectively conceded my point I made earlier that the definition of "greatness" in the sport depends on your criteria used and your point of view. You haven't realised it but you have simply come around to echoing my own argument. But keep at it; it is at least entertaining to see someone repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot.

Anyone apart from our letsdumber number one would add to the claim that Ingebrigtsen is not the best at age 22 from 1500m to 5k who - in his or her opinion - has done better. Anyone apart from Dumbstrong.

You put it as a fact, that the best distance runner in history has to be the best in a single event. This is NOT A FACT, Dumb. It is your point of view. For me it's nonsense, but you can see it this way.

What if someone runs 9.62 + 19.23 + 43.05. Bolt for you still would be the clear no. 1 sprinter? For me not. I would say this runner is almost as good as Bolt in the 100/200 but has the same level in the 400m and for me this would count a lot. There never can be a clear measure Dumb.

Rudisha has done better than Coe in the 800m. I would rank Coe ahead of Rudisha in distance running because of his great results up to the Mile.

You have Rudisha clearly ahead - that's OK. But not a fact.

7765656747863 wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

But you are the one dying in a ditch about Jakob being the best over 1500-5k at 22 when you have conceded there is "no clear measure" of what is the running GOAT. So your argument for that achievement offers no proof to the point of the thread, which is about Jakob's goal of becoming the GOAT. In fact it has no direct relevance to that question; it is merely a matter of your personal obsession. If there is no definitive answer to the question of what is the distance running GOAT - as you have conceded - then it must also mean that my assessment is as valid as yours or anyone else's. Further, by saying there is "no clear measure" of this question you have also effectively conceded my point I made earlier that the definition of "greatness" in the sport depends on your criteria used and your point of view. You haven't realised it but you have simply come around to echoing my own argument. But keep at it; it is at least entertaining to see someone repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot.

Anyone apart from our letsdumber number one would add to the claim that Ingebrigtsen is not the best at age 22 from 1500m to 5k who - in his or her opinion - has done better. Anyone apart from Dumbstrong.

You put it as a fact, that the best distance runner in history has to be the best in a single event. This is NOT A FACT, Dumb. It is your point of view. For me it's nonsense, but you can see it this way.

What if someone runs 9.62 + 19.23 + 43.05. Bolt for you still would be the clear no. 1 sprinter? For me not. I would say this runner is almost as good as Bolt in the 100/200 but has the same level in the 400m and for me this would count a lot. There never can be a clear measure Dumb.

Rudisha has done better than Coe in the 800m. I would rank Coe ahead of Rudisha in distance running because of his great results up to the Mile.

You have Rudisha clearly ahead - that's OK. But not a fact.