agip wrote:
reasonable people should wait to see what law enforcement and the courts reveal about Broward County. We've all been burned dozens of times by the right wing outrage machine that turns out to be fabricating and false.
If only you applied that logic to the Mueller investigation!
Pointing Out the REALLY Obvious wrote:
L L wrote:
I think this sums up your view:
Trump is a total unethical sleeze.
On one hand, that's the reason you impeach and try to get him out of office.
On the other hand, that's the reason he may never concede and will continue to do unethical sleezy things to stay in power.
He would test the 2/3 senate threshold for conviction and there are enough unethical sleezes in the senate to protect him.
There are currently 51 unethical sleezes in the Senate to protect him. Come January there will be a few more.
Let's give the benefit of the doubt. For instance, Romney seems like a pretty decent guy. He might be taking McCain's place as a man who I can disagree with, but still respect.
Hardloper wrote:
If only you applied that logic to the Mueller investigation!
If only you actually worked when you are being paid by your employer rather than troll on LRC all day long. If only.
Hardloper wrote:
agip wrote:
reasonable people should wait to see what law enforcement and the courts reveal about Broward County. We've all been burned dozens of times by the right wing outrage machine that turns out to be fabricating and false.
If only you applied that logic to the Mueller investigation!
The Mueller investigation has returned dozens of indictments and guilty pleas from people in the right wing media and Trump orbits. We know a lot about the criminality of trumpers and right wingers - Mueller is doing a great job bringing it out to air.
So your point was terrible.
Hardloper wrote:
agip wrote:
reasonable people should wait to see what law enforcement and the courts reveal about Broward County. We've all been burned dozens of times by the right wing outrage machine that turns out to be fabricating and false.
If only you applied that logic to the Mueller investigation!
I think all the liberals here have indeed applied the same logic to the Mueller investigation.
While there is enough evidence in the public domain to warrant impeachment, I have yet to see anyone here who advocates taking that kind of action before we see Mueller's report.
Trump is in panic mode.
Kelly will be fired.
House in Dem hands.
Inventing a new term for 'Presidential Harassment" or something.
Mueller will likely have indictments handed out later today.
Rigged for Hillary wrote:
rigged, ya moran wrote:
Scott had 8 years to fire her.
And I a,ready blamed Scott for not firing her earlier in the thread.
Watch this Rigged: we are about to (well the onus on you) have reasonable discussion of this matter-
I agree that she seems very incompetent. Happy?
But does that mean she purposefully committed fraud to help Dems, either before or now?? No, it doesn't.
* If she found 1000 ballots once after the election was over, who would that have likely hurt the most, if it is a Democrat district? Exactly, Dems.
* In this election, the poorly designed ballot likely caused 20,000+ "undervotes" for the Senate race, which may have exclusively cost Nelson this election, because he only is behind by ~10,000. Read that again.
So, NOW how do you feel about her incompetence?? Maybe not so bad, huh?
And yes, you did already blame Scott for not firing her or forcing someone else in as her "personal assistant" who could oversee her every move (however they did have 2 state officials overseeing her and her polling place during this election). So blame the R's partly for any fiascos here.
Further blame the R's because Jeb Bush appointed her.
But maybe incompetence is what they want in a Democratic stronghold? Or maybe they just got lucky that that incompetence helped them, as it appears to.
But the bottom line is: Rick Scott and A-hole Trump screaming "FRAUD, Dems are trying to STEAL THE ELECTION!!" simply because of slow vote counting, and some incompetence and irregularities that are likely favoring them (and which they played a role in not fixing), is complete, and utter classless BS.
Do you know how many other races around the country were still counting votes and where winners were undecided several days after the election? Quite a few. Did the needle move in the AZ senate race, and the initial winner ended up not being the actual winner? Yes, of course. Were cries of FRAUD and THIEVES! immediately shouted in those elections? No.
Are recounts in FL supposed to happen BY LAW in the Senate and Gov races? Yes, of course. Then why is Trump demanding that R's be declared the winners without all votes counted (including military votes that came in late from overseas) and without LEGALLY DEMANDED re-counts?
Because he is a classless, and autocratic buffoon.
So where do we agree?
1) Snipes is incompetent and needs to resign or let go.
2) Clear cases of her committing fraud to help D's does not exist
3) R's hold some responsibility in this mess for appointing her, and not fixing the problem of her incompetence (fire her or help her)
4) Her incompetence likely has helped R's more than D's, and could have handed the election to Scott
5) Based on all that, it absurd for Scott and Trump and Lindsay POS Graham to immediately start accusing Dems of purposefully conspiring a plot to commit fraud and STEAL the election from the R's, not to mention very harmful to the country.
Where do we agree?
BREAKING!
Reporter Anna Schecter revealed to MSNBC on Tuesday that her interview today with Jerome Corsi was abruptly shut down by his lawyers after a call from special counsel Robert Mueller’s office.
Jerome Corsi is one of Roger Stone's "associates". A rabid Trumper. A conspiracy "theorist". And a Infowars regular. . . . The hammers are starting to come down.
agip wrote:
I'm on pins and needles here - lots of intel suggest some major goings on at the office of the special counsel.
Will someone named Trump or Kushner be indicted?
I don't think anyone would be surprised if Ivanka, Jr or Jared were indicted. NY State will get them if Mueller doesn't.
Jared, Don Jr., and another charge against Manafort are very likely. Stone and several of his associates are likely on the hook too. Ivanka might skate, but I won't be surprised to see her indicted too. At a minimum, she, Don Jr., and Eric are at risk with regard to running a criminal enterprise (The Trump Organization). This, of course, gives The Orange One exposure too.
I want the truth. I want justice served for those who broke the law. I don't care who that includes...Democrat, Republican, or my mother.
Look out! Duck! Republican Party at work!
you repubs can never, never, call yourself "conservative" again.
you drove the deficit up 60% in ONE YEAR
Fat hurts wrote:
Hardloper wrote:
If only you applied that logic to the Mueller investigation!
I think all the liberals here have indeed applied the same logic to the Mueller investigation.
While there is enough evidence in the public domain to warrant impeachment, I have yet to see anyone here who advocates taking that kind of action before we see Mueller's report.
There might never be a report for us to see. But that doesn't stop people from counting up the impeachment votes anyway.
agip wrote:
the problem is that people have an innate desire to be ruled by a strong fist. You can talk all you want about Americans loving and breathing democracy, but human nature has a very large piece that longs to be ruled over. You see it everywhere.
In the past the political parties and press have managed to keep candidates from going that route. But with the advent of Trump and right wing media unisphere, that desire is coming out into the open in America.
Will it disappear when trump fades from the scene? I hope so.
But to your point, we have to understand that many trumpettes, alt righters and Republicans and the like really aren't fans of democracy. They think the browns and the blacks and libs will lead us to being Venezuela, and they have been trying to subvert democracy for years, to that end.
I'm thinking voter suppression mostly, but also the refusal to push back against trump's anti-constitional stands. The right loves trump because he shares their worries about the future of America and wants a strong leader to keep us from veering off course.
This is astute and correct. This, of course, doesn't absolve Trumpers from their very warped view of the world and of American, but it is true.
Your observation is also the reason that Religion remains strong really in all parts of the world. The idea that there is an omnipotent being looking after us is greatly comforting to believers despite no scientific evidence that God exists.
Clear it Up wrote:
agip wrote:
so to finish the point, yes, we can hold Trumpism against trump supporters. They aren't democratic, they aren't fans of the American ideals, they are racial hegemonists and they should be called out for it.
How should we call them out for it. At the workplace, outside their home, when they are pumping gas? Should we just chide them anonymously on boards? What's your plan?
The best way possible -- vote.
Fat hurts wrote:
Pointing Out the REALLY Obvious wrote:
There are currently 51 unethical sleezes in the Senate to protect him. Come January there will be a few more.
Let's give the benefit of the doubt. For instance, Romney seems like a pretty decent guy. He might be taking McCain's place as a man who I can disagree with, but still respect.
Fair enough. I would put the probability of Romney (or any other GOP Senator) having any integrity at less than 10%. Not zero. But definitely not very likely.
We shall see.
Hardloper wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
I think all the liberals here have indeed applied the same logic to the Mueller investigation.
While there is enough evidence in the public domain to warrant impeachment, I have yet to see anyone here who advocates taking that kind of action before we see Mueller's report.
There might never be a report for us to see. But that doesn't stop people from counting up the impeachment votes anyway.
so many right wingers seem not to be aware that members of trump's campaign and WH staff have been indicted or have plead guilty. And the only reason we'd know about that is Mueller.
They'd need 18-20 Senate Republicans (out of 51-53) to have integrity to convict Trump.
Can Romney find 19 cohorts to do this?
Rubio would be on board if there was momentum.
Would Cruz do it if it came down to him?
Is there any reason to have loyalty to Trump.
He would never be loyal to anyone else.
Flagpole wrote:
agip wrote:
the problem is that people have an innate desire to be ruled by a strong fist. You can talk all you want about Americans loving and breathing democracy, but human nature has a very large piece that longs to be ruled over. You see it everywhere.
In the past the political parties and press have managed to keep candidates from going that route. But with the advent of Trump and right wing media unisphere, that desire is coming out into the open in America.
Will it disappear when trump fades from the scene? I hope so.
But to your point, we have to understand that many trumpettes, alt righters and Republicans and the like really aren't fans of democracy. They think the browns and the blacks and libs will lead us to being Venezuela, and they have been trying to subvert democracy for years, to that end.
I'm thinking voter suppression mostly, but also the refusal to push back against trump's anti-constitional stands. The right loves trump because he shares their worries about the future of America and wants a strong leader to keep us from veering off course.
This is astute and correct. This, of course, doesn't absolve Trumpers from their very warped view of the world and of American, but it is true.
Your observation is also the reason that Religion remains strong really in all parts of the world. The idea that there is an omnipotent being looking after us is greatly comforting to believers despite no scientific evidence that God exists.
Democracy sucks when it doesn't go your way doesn't it?
Fat hurts wrote:
L L wrote:
The impeachment process would open up a lot of exposure to Trump's allies and family.
If he resigned before the process, then that exposure would not happen in the same way.
I don't know about the mechanics of any deal, but I doubt any prosecution of Trump's family would happen after a resignation.
Legally it could, but the optics would be pretty bad.
It appears Michael FLynn may have cut a deal to spare his son and Manafort is working on a deal to spare his family.
If Mueller has any influence on post-presidency charges on Trump, then a resignation may help.
The deals with Flynn and Manafort are cooperation agreements. Those are very different as they are put in writing and are completely legal.
I don't think Mueller has the power to make a legal agreement that hinges on Tiny's resignation. I don't see a way to make your "deal" into a legal agreement.
You may be right about exposure. Prosecutors do have discretion as to who they go after and a resignation may make it less likely that Tiny and his children are indicted. But that would have to be a gamble that Tiny is willing to take on his own. There would be no guarantees. Plus, Mueller wouldn't even be able to give Tiny a verbal assurance of anything.
It would be up to the president to decide on his own whether resignation might work to his advantage. And that's another reason why I think resignation will never happen. Tiny would conclude that he stands a better chance to control his fate as the president than as the ex-president. And he would probably be right.
Earlier I thought a resignation would be the best option for Trump more strongly than I do now, though I still think it is his best option.
The reason it is not as good an option now is that there will very likely be state charges for which Pence can't pardon him.
That said, sentences are almost always subject to a range of jail time, and the judge and prosecutors often have a say about how lenient to be depending on a lot of factors including contrition and behavior during the process. If Trump were to resign and say he is doing it to spare the country a Senate trial, while that's likely not sincere, it MIGHT add to some leniency.
His crimes are really bad though. I feel that ultimately justice should be the prevailing factor with regard to the Orange One, and that would include indictment and prison time after he is out of office. If he avoids prison due to combination of pardon and leniency and/or plea bargain, but he leaves office early, then that will just be a silver lining that he is gone early. Justice would be him serving at least an average prison sentence for all the crimes he has committed.
He will pay one way or another...in either a legal or Constitutional way...or both.
Flagpole wrote:
agip wrote:
the problem is that people have an innate desire to be ruled by a strong fist. You can talk all you want about Americans loving and breathing democracy, but human nature has a very large piece that longs to be ruled over. You see it everywhere.
In the past the political parties and press have managed to keep candidates from going that route. But with the advent of Trump and right wing media unisphere, that desire is coming out into the open in America.
Will it disappear when trump fades from the scene? I hope so.
But to your point, we have to understand that many trumpettes, alt righters and Republicans and the like really aren't fans of democracy. They think the browns and the blacks and libs will lead us to being Venezuela, and they have been trying to subvert democracy for years, to that end.
I'm thinking voter suppression mostly, but also the refusal to push back against trump's anti-constitional stands. The right loves trump because he shares their worries about the future of America and wants a strong leader to keep us from veering off course.
This is astute and correct. This, of course, doesn't absolve Trumpers from their very warped view of the world and of American, but it is true.
Your observation is also the reason that Religion remains strong really in all parts of the world. The idea that there is an omnipotent being looking after us is greatly comforting to believers despite no scientific evidence that God exists.
Perhaps for some, but in Christianity, our faith is not based on the idea that we want or need an omnipotent being. It is based on God's love for us. That love is expressed in His son Jesus, who was sacrificed for our sins. And it is also expressed in the grace He offers to all who put their faith in Jesus.
God is indeed omnipotent. But that alone doesn't mean He is worthy of His followers. We follow the Lord because of the kind of god he is.
Fat hurts wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
This is astute and correct. This, of course, doesn't absolve Trumpers from their very warped view of the world and of American, but it is true.
Your observation is also the reason that Religion remains strong really in all parts of the world. The idea that there is an omnipotent being looking after us is greatly comforting to believers despite no scientific evidence that God exists.
Perhaps for some, but in Christianity, our faith is not based on the idea that we want or need an omnipotent being. It is based on God's love for us. That love is expressed in His son Jesus, who was sacrificed for our sins. And it is also expressed in the grace He offers to all who put their faith in Jesus.
God is indeed omnipotent. But that alone doesn't mean He is worthy of His followers. We follow the Lord because of the kind of god he is.
you ah know that your god slaughtered thousands and thousands of people, detailed in the bible, right? Whole cities, incinerated.