JK- what’s the most rational explanation for how Sara Hall runs significantly faster at age 37

Yo Sara ian wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

Why don't you explain it if you are so confident in your opinions?

Because I'm tired of doing so and having dumb people not being able to understand.

The sad thing is that it's so simple and yet you still can't grasp it after 20 years.

Chirp on though.

You haven't explained anything. Try addressing the issue?

Yo Sara ian wrote:

Is nobody else allowed to improve? What is the rate of improvement of those listed above her?

I hope you are considering the set-up of the project race for flattering times.

You still haven't answered the question regarding when you think she started doping.

I dont know when she started doping - if she has. The point I make in response to the thread title is that doping is the "most rational explanation" for how she has achieved the level she has in such short order in her late 30's. That doesn't make it a statement of fact or proven, but high on any list of probabilities. I would suggest the same for any other athlete in those circumstances. If she dopes, she is far from being alone.

So what are the alternative explanations that are more credible? That she only discovered her real talent in her mid-30's and only really began training seriously at that age? The shoes? (which everyone else also has).

Do you assume that all of your neighbors are embezzling because they have nicer houses than you? American distance runners don't dope. So the odds are 1% that she has. The odds are 99% that she is clean. Why not treat her with the respect that she deserves. She has trained hard and lived the perfect life. She should be every young girls' role model.

2.20 made her one of the fastest in the world that year. As another poster kindly supplied, she was 15th fastest. As I also pointed out, she was less than 2 minutes slower last year than the best by the present world record holder.

I dont buy your argument which appears to be that 2.20 wasn't really that fast. It would have won every major championship - world and Olympic - for the last decade. It is the second fastest time ever run by an American woman.

So - what if she continues to run faster? At the rate of her current progression she could conceivably lop several minutes off in the next couple of years.

Coach of besty wrote:

Do you assume that all of your neighbors are embezzling because they have nicer houses than you? American distance runners don't dope. So the odds are 1% that she has. The odds are 99% that she is clean. Why not treat her with the respect that she deserves. She has trained hard and lived the perfect life. She should be every young girls' role model.

I tried to take you seriously until you said "American distance runners don't dope".

Coach of besty wrote:

As an American, I sure hope that she can improve over the next 2-3 years. I especially look forward to your reaction if she gets down to 2:15.

It won't be my reaction, but yours - when she gets included in the Paula threads.

how does that work? wrote:

Yo Sara ian wrote:

Because I'm tired of doing so and having dumb people not being able to understand.

The sad thing is that it's so simple and yet you still can't grasp it after 20 years.

Chirp on though.

You haven't explained anything. Try addressing the issue?

I have and you don't get it. I've already said I'm not going to try to explain it to a dullard over and over again.

Yo Sara ian wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

You haven't explained anything. Try addressing the issue?

I have and you don't get it. I've already said I'm not going to try to explain it to a dullard over and over again.

But you haven't explained anything. Explain how EPO circumvents homeostasis?

You never got round to explaining it . Maybe you don't understand the question?

You have presented all of this multiple times. The time is not relevant to hot weather championship marathon racing. Hall will not run 2:20 in that scenario.

Try to grasp the "rate of progression" and how it relates to someone repeatedly running a specific distance.

Armstronglivs, you haven't explained how EPO makes a runner transport more oxygen while breathing less oxygen?

Even though you keep saying it, you haven't explained how?

Armstronglivs wrote:

You keep sliding away from my earlier question. What would you make of it if she continues to improve at the rate she has?

This is like saying we'd all be record holders if we continued to improve at some rate which we did a few times before.

I once took 20 seconds off my best 1500 time. Two more races at that rate and I'd be the fastest of all time.

How many have doped in the past 25 years? Please provide the stats. I like facts. You live in a world of opinions and false accusations.

how does that work? wrote:

Yo Sara ian wrote:

I have and you don't get it. I've already said I'm not going to try to explain it to a dullard over and over again.

But you haven't explained anything. Explain how EPO circumvents homeostasis?

You never got round to explaining it . Maybe you don't understand the question?

I did. You were unable to grasp it and still are. There is no question, just you not understanding.

Like a kid saying "but why?"

how does that work? wrote:

how EPO makes a runner transport more oxygen while breathing less oxygen?

Nobody has ever put it this way except you. Maybe this is why you don't understand how it works. Your definition of how it "doesn't work" is not how everyone else knows how it does work.

As noted, it was not in short order. It was pretty lengthy given that she was already pretty developed as a runner. It took her five years of Marathon training on top of the fifteen . she already had.

Very many Marathoners developed far faster. Lopes set a WR in his third completed one.

The most rational explanation is actually finding her best event and training. The two things that are most rational for anybody really. Doping does not create talent.

Very likely that the Hall's only wanted to devote the time to Marathon training separately rather than at the same time. Ryan had his time and then she got her chance.

Armstronglivs wrote:

I dont know when she started doping - if she has. ).

I'm asking how fast you think she should be able to run at 30 plus given her shorter distance career.

Then you can easily pinpoint the time she began doping.

Please review her Marathon career so you are familiar with all the facts.

Webber wrote:

How many have doped in the past 25 years? Please provide the stats. I like facts. You live in a world of opinions and false accusations.

WADA has estimated that doping is likely to be between 10-40% of elites. There are confidential athlete surveys from world championships in 2011 and the Pan Arab Games that have put doping at a minimum if 1 in 3 championships athletes, and possibly even higher, at more than 1 in 2 athletes. There have been official estimates of blood doping that again put the practice at 20-30% of distance running athletes. Antidoping experts like the Jamaican whistleblower Ann Shirley have said doping is endemic amongst the best athletes in all sports and across all countries. Doping has become a consistent feature of global sport since the 1970's. All of this and more is publicly available and has previously been published - as well as referred to on Letsrun. The picture today is that the actual incidence of doping far exceeds the numbers caught. It is also a highly sophisticated activity, a billion-Euro black market business in which at least a hundred designer drugs cannot be detected by testers. (Al Jazeera)

So what are you basing your opinions on?

Yo Sara ian wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

I dont know when she started doping - if she has. ).

I'm asking how fast you think she should be able to run at 30 plus given her shorter distance career.

Then you can easily pinpoint the time she began doping.

Please review her Marathon career so you are familiar with all the facts.

Your questions show you don't know anything about doping. An athlete could dope at any time in their career - it could be years ago or last week. The improvements from some drugs will be felt in a very short period - a few weeks would demonstrate the benefits of some, like EPO or blood doping, while other stimulants could have an effect the day they were taken.

I am not interested in when Hall may have commenced doping - if she has - as it is irrelevant to the question of whether the level she has attained at 37 could possibly be the result of doping or be clean. If she had doped she could have done so a few weeks before her 2.20 race, taken stimulants that day, or commenced micro-dosing some years ago. All are possible.

My only point, which I reiterate in response to the thread title, is that doping could explain the remarkable increase in her performance levels at the age of 37. Only someone who is naive and knows nothing of sports doping would not see that. I guess that is you.

So you are unwilling to actually truly commit to your argument.

There is a point where you are OK with her performances as an old woman but you won't say when.

You never mentioned her when she was running high 2;20s and didn't even know she ran 2;22 twice and yet here you are now.

My point is that what she has done is very possible clean.