A very simple question

Armstronglivs wrote:

Since your conclusion is that the data is incomplete - that is your "conclusion". You have nothing to add to that. You do not see a "whereabouts failure" as signalling anything but itself.

But what you cannot square your inconclusive "conclusion" with is the information we reliably have that actual doping far exceeds any data of violations, whether they be positive tests or whereabouts failures. You are unable to see a connection between whereabouts failures and the evidence they afford as a manifestation of the wider incidence of doping in the sport, when everything we know about doping suggests they are part of the same picture. You have consigned these issues to different universes, when they are part of the same worldly phenomenon. You are like one who sees the trunk of an elephant but refuses to acknowledge what it is attached to.

It is also part of my conclusion that "you have nothing to add to that".

It is easy to square my inconclusive conclusion with the knowledge of higher doping prevalence versus doping busts and some incidence of whereabouts failures, by saying that the relationship has not been shown, and is therefore inconclusive and pure speculation.

I am unable to see a connection with whereabouts, when you are unable to show the connection.

Using your figures earlier, in your world of doping, 60-70% of athletes are clean. Maybe you can argue from the opposite direction and explain why you think it is unlikely for these 60-70% of athletes to make mistakes in filing, or in their daily personal planning and organization.

I missed test is a possible "mistake in filing", 2 missed tests and an athlete is on notice, 3 missed tests is an athlete who is avoiding testing. Hence the violation and penalty.

These athletes that are clean and miss 3 tests are just complete idiots. They were told what they had to do. They were even two chances to screw up. Instead they don’t. Therefore they need to get kicked to the curb. There is always a chance one of them is innocent, but it is extremely small. But at that point, who cares?

I don’t care anything what this Rekrunner says. In scanning through it appears to be a bunch of drivel. You’ve got 90% of this board that believe the sport has been ruled forever by cheaters. It is and will be as long as the IAF wont get harder for punishment. Don’t invite anyone in a club that had cheated. Don’t pay athletes or agents that are associated with these athletes. Sue athletes to get back money. Take back money from National organizations. STOP paying East Africans to run in your races!!!

If I’m a race director of let’s say Zurich, why would I need any East African? Have the Ingebritsen brothers all spread out in 3 different races. Have Europeans and Americans fill out the fields. It would be great.

Armstronglivs wrote:

I missed test is a possible "mistake in filing", 2 missed tests and an athlete is on notice, 3 missed tests is an athlete who is avoiding testing. Hence the violation and penalty.

As I said, nothing to add to that.

Likewise, I don’t care anything what this Alabama BS says. In scanning through it appears to be a bunch of drivel.

In this case, it doesn't matter what rekrunner or Alabama BS or 90% of this board says, when WADA defines and categorizes the different violations, and defines the criteria. Where you go from there can be logical, or not.

That's one of the things that rekrunner says.

rekrunner wrote:

Doped to the Max wrote:

What you have said and the position you've maintained on the Aden case (Operation Rial) is basically there's nothing much to see there.

...

So, given all this strong evidence - do you still think Aden wasn't doping his athletes at Sabadell?

I do not say things like "nothing much to see there". I'd say to "try again", but this is not an Aden thread and there is nothing new to discuss, so I'd rather you just stop trying.

Or, go back to an Aden thread and put your response there, if there is something new to discuss.

Well...there's "nothing to see there" in terms of you inferring that Aden didn't dope any of his athletes at Sabadell (see your quotes posted by casual). But you're right, it's not an Aden thread and I'll leave it at that.

And there's no point in me further debating you on this subject because as usual you want to dominate this thread and anyone else's opinion that doesn't reflect your ideology is meant with great contempt & criticism. In fact, that seems to be your style is to undermine opinions that dissent from yours. I guess you're the resident expert now on LRC?

First we have RC saying that in "90%" of Kenyan whereabouts failures are athletes who are "ignorant" or "arrogant" in understanding the protocol and weren't trying to intentionally avoid testing windows because of any doping. So, I guess I'll go with the legendary coach and never cast any aspersions for doping on these poor Kenyans who don't know any better. It's a terrible thing to subject them to OOC testing under those conditions.

And I guess with you, most of whereabouts failures in nations other than Kenya are simple oversights, misunderstandings, mixup, etc., and don't deserve any suspicion of intentionally missing the tests because of doping? Because athletes these days are mostly clean and they're so busy and caught up in the demands & stress of being a professional runner that it's so easy to see how they would get testing windows mixed up, forget to charge the phone, not hear any knocking, forget to update travel plans, etc...yes...I finally DO get it. ?

"casual" did a good job pulling out summary quotes. "Nothing to see here" was your takeaway conclusion, but not a very accurate one.

I'm also not sure I would frame the last few pages as a debate, or a debate with me. WADA gives clear definitions of these terms, and it seems that a handful of you are "debating" that these clear definitions must mean something more.

Renato gives us insight into Kenyans, so it is worth listening to someone with firsthand knowledge who has been there.