LateRunnerPhil - Tinman Training Through Summer to 5k PR in Sep (Goal ~15:30)

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Sidenote: Jakob's 1500m final in Doha

First turn run entirely in edge Lane 2. Unclear why he found this necessary to run wide so early with the race going out relatively quick.

Second turn run on outside of Lane 1. Could not find space to tuck in and save distance despite again a quick opening quarter. Meanwhile Makhloufi and Lewandowski are running on inside of lane 1.

Third turn he finally gets to the inside, but is not close enough to Makhloufi to gain any drafting benefit.

Fourth turn for some reason he closes on Makhloufi very quickly (bringing the whole closing pack with him) and then decides to run wide on him to prevent their advance, so he again runs extra distance.

Fifth turn, he moves past Makhloufi, but instead of tucking inside behind non-threat Hiss-Bachir he runs wide again on a turn and allows Makhloufi to pass him on the inside. He then presses Hiss-Bachir on his shoulder, which moves him to protect from a pass and allows a savvy Makhloufi to pass on the inside.

Sixth turn, he again is on the outside which would be OK if he like Lewandowski had been biding time and conserving energy the whole time. Instead he's further draining his kick.

Seventh turn, he's on the inside! Unfortunately its the worst time to be on the inside. He's boxed with under 200 to go.

Final straightaway, Makhloufi and Lewandowski wisely go side-by-side to make Jakob need to go wide and outsprint them to change the order. He can do neither and just holds position.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

the lactate men wrote:

From the horse's mouth. You admit that you didn't do it correctly. BUT you MUST realize that hiding the heart rate values is not going to fix your tendency to go too hard in training. This is a reality, as shown by your over training last fall and subsequent injuries. Hiding from the truth does not change the truth.

But you don't do effort-based running, you fixate on unreachable times and goal paces and run yourself into the ground. Not having a heart rate monitor hasn't fixed that.

Here is my suggestion from looking at your training plan. 3'30 for your 1600m repeats assuming 1-2 minutes rest means you probably are in shape for 1645 for 5k. Back off and assume that you are in shape for 17:00-17:15. Then do the 1600s in 3:35-3:40/km.

This is difficult to hear because in essence it's saying that you're WORSE than you think you are. But this is the essence of training. You have to have the courage to train easier than you think that you have to train. Every athlete is different, and some athletes need someone to push themselves to run harder. But you are the type that needs someone to hold yourself back. Be proud of your ability to work hard, but also know that it means that you should ALWAYS do less than you think you should. So if your first instinct is 3:30 for the 1600s, then do 3:40.

Your 7000m time trial is ludicrous. It is insanity to keep repeating the same mistakes. You will not run 3'20/km when you can hardly do that pace for 5k solo. Aim for 3'30 instead. If you feel good halfway then you will speed up. The beauty of long distances is that you can run within a few seconds of your best all-out effort on a big negative split, with a lot more room for error when done this way.

Don't do workouts with your races/time trials. It's the new sexy thing everyone loves doing but you don't train enough volume to do it. It's just overloading your system.

You will probably scoff at what I'm saying, proceed to do your original plan, and be trashed in a few months. But in the case that you do listen, keep in mind: Your goal races are in September. That's more than enough time to build up slowly. Keep in mind that training too hard has the same exact effect as training too easy. Your body doesn't get any better. Except that when you train too hard, you also reduce your ability to absorb any future training, and risk

HR/running too fast - yes, I ran CV sessions and tempos too fast. It was not because I'm not able to run what I want to run, but because I overestimated my fitness level and calculated my paces off my 16:00 5k goal that I thought I would be in shape in if I just mentally try harder. So my paces were around 5-10s/k too fast on tempos, threshold, mile reps and CV 1k reps, also on VO2MAX reps and my peaking session. IF I derive my paces from realistic times, like a non-tapered TT done on the track in the same conditions I plan to do my workouts in, they will be slower and then I will not run faster since I want to train OPTIMALLY and not just as hard as I can so I'm done by the last rep.

1600m reps in 3:35-3:40/k? Tinman calculator wants this (threshold) pace for a 16:36/34:35 guy. You really think I'm in that bad shape at the moment? 3:40/k is more like MP/Tinman tempo pace atm, fully aerobic without much breathing. I've done a lot of aerobic training in the last months, my problem atm is rather not being able to get fast/produce/tolerate more lactic anymore, but that will come back after the peaking phase and first races. One potential problem I'm encountering is that I'm just shifting from aerobic to anaerobic, and vice-versa, but not really making massive improvements anymore. But we will see what's gonna happen when I'm turning this massive base I'm building at the moment into specific speed again. 2:40-3:00/k feels very comfortable during strides.

I have done a 6k TT, solo on the track, in 3:30/k last year. Around 10k pace, it was tough at the end. Races that followed 2-3 weeks later were 6.4k in 3:25/k (sunny and untapered) and then 5k in 3:15/k (peak race, with group to run with). Both all-out and with a massive kick at the end. So 7k now in 3:20-3:25/k should be realistic. I might even buy the Next% for it, sadly the last two running shoes I bought were too small and give me blisters (bought them on discount and they only had half size smaller available, big mistake).

I will probably combine the 7k TT with 4x200 to work on speed. Hard days hard, easy days easy. Also a 2k TT is not a workout day, there NEEDS to be some CV reps afterwards or at least a tempo/threshold run. 23:20-23:30 is my goal range (3:20-3:22/k), which would certify a CV pace of 3:25/k (which is still slow for me, considering I did them in 3:17-3:21/k mostly).

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

the lactate men wrote:

From the horse's mouth. You admit that you didn't do it correctly. BUT you MUST realize that hiding the heart rate values is not going to fix your tendency to go too hard in training. This is a reality, as shown by your over training last fall and subsequent injuries. Hiding from the truth does not change the truth.

But you don't do effort-based running, you fixate on unreachable times and goal paces and run yourself into the ground. Not having a heart rate monitor hasn't fixed that.

Here is my suggestion from looking at your training plan. 3'30 for your 1600m repeats assuming 1-2 minutes rest means you probably are in shape for 1645 for 5k. Back off and assume that you are in shape for 17:00-17:15. Then do the 1600s in 3:35-3:40/km.

This is difficult to hear because in essence it's saying that you're WORSE than you think you are. But this is the essence of training. You have to have the courage to train easier than you think that you have to train. Every athlete is different, and some athletes need someone to push themselves to run harder. But you are the type that needs someone to hold yourself back. Be proud of your ability to work hard, but also know that it means that you should ALWAYS do less than you think you should. So if your first instinct is 3:30 for the 1600s, then do 3:40.

Your 7000m time trial is ludicrous. It is insanity to keep repeating the same mistakes. You will not run 3'20/km when you can hardly do that pace for 5k solo. Aim for 3'30 instead. If you feel good halfway then you will speed up. The beauty of long distances is that you can run within a few seconds of your best all-out effort on a big negative split, with a lot more room for error when done this way.

Don't do workouts with your races/time trials. It's the new sexy thing everyone loves doing but you don't train enough volume to do it. It's just overloading your system.

You will probably scoff at what I'm saying, proceed to do your original plan, and be trashed in a few months. But in the case that you do listen, keep in mind: Your goal races are in September. That's more than enough time to build up slowly. Keep in mind that training too hard has the same exact effect as training too easy. Your body doesn't get any better. Except that when you train too hard, you also reduce your ability to absorb any future training, and risk

HR/running too fast - yes, I ran CV sessions and tempos too fast. It was not because I'm not able to run what I want to run, but because I overestimated my fitness level and calculated my paces off my 16:00 5k goal that I thought I would be in shape in if I just mentally try harder. So my paces were around 5-10s/k too fast on tempos, threshold, mile reps and CV 1k reps, also on VO2MAX reps and my peaking session. IF I derive my paces from realistic times, like a non-tapered TT done on the track in the same conditions I plan to do my workouts in, they will be slower and then I will not run faster since I want to train OPTIMALLY and not just as hard as I can so I'm done by the last rep.

1600m reps in 3:35-3:40/k? Tinman calculator wants this (threshold) pace for a 16:36/34:35 guy. You really think I'm in that bad shape at the moment? 3:40/k is more like MP/Tinman tempo pace atm, fully aerobic without much breathing. I've done a lot of aerobic training in the last months, my problem atm is rather not being able to get fast/produce/tolerate more lactic anymore, but that will come back after the peaking phase and first races. One potential problem I'm encountering is that I'm just shifting from aerobic to anaerobic, and vice-versa, but not really making massive improvements anymore. But we will see what's gonna happen when I'm turning this massive base I'm building at the moment into specific speed again. 2:40-3:00/k feels very comfortable during strides.

I have done a 6k TT, solo on the track, in 3:30/k last year. Around 10k pace, it was tough at the end. Races that followed 2-3 weeks later were 6.4k in 3:25/k (sunny and untapered) and then 5k in 3:15/k (peak race, with group to run with). Both all-out and with a massive kick at the end. So 7k now in 3:20-3:25/k should be realistic. I might even buy the Next% for it, sadly the last two running shoes I bought were too small and give me blisters (bought them on discount and they only had half size smaller available, big mistake).

I will probably combine the 7k TT with 4x200 to work on speed. Hard days hard, easy days easy. Also a 2k TT is not a workout day, there NEEDS to be some CV reps afterwards or at least a tempo/threshold run. 23:20-23:30 is my goal range (3:20-3:22/k), which would certify a CV pace of 3:25/k (which is still slow for me, considering I did them in 3:17-3:21/k mostly).

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

And add to that that Jakob ran an exhausting 5000m race (and heats) before that, while his competitors remained fresh.

Sure, he is the young, inexperienced kid making many mistakes. According to your summary, in that race he got clearly outplayed by Lewandowski and Makloufhi, who both had a better racing strategy and knew what to do. Tim obviously also did the best thing he could.

Going for a double probably was a mistake in itself, why not maximize his chances to get a medal? Despite his talent, he went home empty, with a 5th and 4th place finish.

Still, with all of that, both Makloufhi and Lewandowski do have superior (sprint) speed. So it's still up to Jakob to find a way to beat them, not the other way round. Sad that there are no races at the moment, would have been interesting to watch.

The shame is Jakob was in better shape than both of them and should have had the silver. Yes, the 5000 definitely narrowed the gap between them, but it played out perfectly for him with Tim C going out hard and others (Makhloufi, Kwemoi, Hiss-Bachir) keeping the pace fast (for a final). But it was his wasteful tactics that cost him bronze at least from Lewandowski. The race was fast and Jakob didnt even have to drive that pace. He'd shown in the Diamond League all season if he didn't waste energy his final 300 was plenty good to beat guys who waited too long to move or didn't have his aerobic strength. This wasn't vintage Makhloufi, there's a reason he put no separation on places 3-5 in the last 100. Lewandowski dug himself a big hole and ran a good deal extra in the last 400. But Jakob's kick was compromised by his bad tactics and his 5000 meter races. Had he stayed on the inside and made a big move at 300, I really believe he nabs the silver.

a face in the crowd wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

HR/running too fast - yes, I ran CV sessions and tempos too fast. It was not because I'm not able to run what I want to run, but because I overestimated my fitness level and calculated my paces off my 16:00 5k goal that I thought I would be in shape in if I just mentally try harder. So my paces were around 5-10s/k too fast on tempos, threshold, mile reps and CV 1k reps, also on VO2MAX reps and my peaking session. IF I derive my paces from realistic times, like a non-tapered TT done on the track in the same conditions I plan to do my workouts in, they will be slower and then I will not run faster since I want to train OPTIMALLY and not just as hard as I can so I'm done by the last rep.

1600m reps in 3:35-3:40/k? Tinman calculator wants this (threshold) pace for a 16:36/34:35 guy. You really think I'm in that bad shape at the moment? 3:40/k is more like MP/Tinman tempo pace atm, fully aerobic without much breathing. I've done a lot of aerobic training in the last months, my problem atm is rather not being able to get fast/produce/tolerate more lactic anymore, but that will come back after the peaking phase and first races. One potential problem I'm encountering is that I'm just shifting from aerobic to anaerobic, and vice-versa, but not really making massive improvements anymore. But we will see what's gonna happen when I'm turning this massive base I'm building at the moment into specific speed again. 2:40-3:00/k feels very comfortable during strides.

I have done a 6k TT, solo on the track, in 3:30/k last year. Around 10k pace, it was tough at the end. Races that followed 2-3 weeks later were 6.4k in 3:25/k (sunny and untapered) and then 5k in 3:15/k (peak race, with group to run with). Both all-out and with a massive kick at the end. So 7k now in 3:20-3:25/k should be realistic. I might even buy the Next% for it, sadly the last two running shoes I bought were too small and give me blisters (bought them on discount and they only had half size smaller available, big mistake).

I will probably combine the 7k TT with 4x200 to work on speed. Hard days hard, easy days easy. Also a 2k TT is not a workout day, there NEEDS to be some CV reps afterwards or at least a tempo/threshold run. 23:20-23:30 is my goal range (3:20-3:22/k), which would certify a CV pace of 3:25/k (which is still slow for me, considering I did them in 3:17-3:21/k mostly).

Despite your writing this:

"I finally started to realize all my mistakes and that the people here on LRC who posted in my thread were right. "

it remains that the case that no-one can tell you anything.

Out of curiosity, what are PRs of some of the other posters in this thread? 14:5x 5000 here.

An Actual Coach wrote:

Phil what is the purpose of this thread? If it is to get advice on training it has been unsuccessful. There are some people offering you advice but you are being incredibly stubborn. You won’t hear any of it. Have an open mind. Maybe give heart rate training another shot. Maybe you aren’t a fast twitch guy. Maybe you should listen when people say the training paces you are running are too fast.

I’ve had some kids that could rip 100s and 200s in high school that went onto college and ended up being 10k and cross country specialists. It’s not because they were fast twitch (which is a whole can of worms I typically do not get into) it’s because, like you, they were untrained aerobically. Even the kids that were active and played other sports in their youth. There’s a big different between swimming and playing soccer in your youth and training like an elite athlete.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

After the 6 weeks off, I started back into training on January 1 this year. Lots of swimming as cross-training, and 3 weeks of easy running. Then I started with CV workouts and tempo runs once a week (and an easy, hilly long run). Trained one week in Central Park NYC which was a nice change.

My CV pace was once again set too aggressive, around 3:25. My notes say "strong legs but heavy breathing", so it's likely to be my 5k pace. I did a 10k TT during the time and only managed 3:38/k, but it was sunny, a bit windy and not a totally flat course (~2% gradient). Also felt that I couldn't run hard since I haven't done anything hard recently. I think I could have run around 3:30-3:32/k in an ideal track/road race.

My mileage increased a lot, averaging 80-85 mpw for consecutive months and peaking with a 95 mile week during training camp in Portugal which went quite well apart from destroyed hamstrings the last days due to randomly starting strength training with heavy deadlifts (2 weeks there). My strengths, short stuff, still shows on hill reps and strides were I'm very fast. Strides are another things I changed, from running 400m pace to now ~3k pace as 10x20on,40off on soft surfaces.

I started doing workouts on asphalt, especially weekly 10-12k tempo runs in around 3:40/k, on a slight downhill course sometimes taking advantage of wind too (followed by hill sprints). These felt easy/Tinman-Tempo'ish, but since I've only run on soft surfaces previously caused some leg fatigue and shin splints after which I decided to take 5 full days off (after training hard and uninterrupted for 4 months).

Now I'm in my first week back, and will start my build-up for goal races in September. Two 5k's are already planned (assuming they take place), and my goal times are in the 15:30-15:45 range, which would be a great (hopefully realistic) improvement.

I have no idea about my current shape, but will run time-trials and virtual races to set my CV and other training paces. In two weeks from now on, I plan to do a 7k TT on the track with goal pace of 3:20/k which will be very difficult.

For my training system, I will use Tinman again, but hopefully with better/correct paces this time. My paces won't be much different than last year, but hopefully more aerobic. As FT runner, I NEED lots of races/hard workouts to get in shape, which will be done in August (hopefully no heat summer). So after already spending 4 months on base building, I will now spend 3 more months trying to get my 10k time down to 3:20/k, and my 3k time to 3:00/k, which should allow me to race a 5k in my desired target range.

Current plan (might replace/change some workouts, also doing them on track on a good day weather-wise (wind, temperature) and as Fartlek on bad days) for the next months:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ELGE4e6KmHF1hGLRuuh0PcXQUd9cyDN2gmYpEUhqb_8/edit?usp=sharing

Paces will be changed/adjusted after time-trials, like a 2k TT for aerobic power or 7k TT for stamina. Plan is based on Tinman's Finalsurge 5k/10k plan which I purchased for $50, but adjusted to my performance level (starting right away with higher mileage/longer runs). Doubles will also be done a bit later, in the form of cross-training or 20-30 min runs.

dark green=long run, green=easy, yellow=tinman tempo, orange=cv or threshold or easy workout, red=vo2max or TT or race

As someone who is now 32 and started running training at 30 with a 5k PR of over 20 min, let's find out what's still possible as "late-bloomers"!