Great list!
My heart says Ryun ( he inspired me to start running as a skinny asthmatic 14-year old after reading the Jim Ryun Story)...
But my head says Shorter.
They were both a beautiful thing to watch. Poetry in motion.
(sidenote: I was at the 1971 Dream Mile at Franklin Field as a hs junior; he let me run with him on his warm down. My hero as a young runner.)
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Not as good as it looks. Snell was well off his peak in that race and was wrapping up a fairly disastrous (for him) retirement tour, when he lost to Crothers, whom he had beaten easily at the Olympics, as well as finishing last in a mile in Ireland (I think) after falling sick.
Snell was unbeatable from Rome '60 till Tokyo '64, where Ryun crashed out in his 1500 heat in 3.55.
He was 17...
I was just about to post that. Webb was 18 when he broke Ryun's HS record, AND Webb finished as an also ran. Ryun won over the MOST RECENT 1500 meter Olympic champion who had set the 1500 meter WR just ONE YEAR before losing to Ryun.
It's a heck of a choice.
I believe that Ryun is the most gifted runner in the history of US distance running. He achieved remarkable things at an early age, just unimaginable talent.
I do think Shorter had more influence on the running boom that exploded in the 70's and he was out front on the need to end Shamatureism that existed during that time. For those two reasons I'd go with Shorter.
gofort wrote:
Ryun was a great junior and had the most potential that the US has seen. His career did not fulfill all of that potential. In contrast, Shorter delivered on the grand stage, at the Olympics and Fukuoka, when it was the major annual marathon on Earth.
What the hell are you talking about? How many world records did Ryun have? 4 of them. How many world records did Shorter have? None, zero, nada, zip.
Most under-looked stat of all: How many races did Ryun have rabbits? N-O-N-E.
In the pre-professional era there was no incentive to continue competing. Shorter was able to do it because he was accepting cash at the time, risking a lifetime banishment from the sport.
Ryun was the sports rock star, who couldn't walk through an airport without drawing a crowd. Shorter could easily get lost lost in an accountants convention. Ryan is willing to engage with anyone about his life in sports. Shorter, even being paid, is reluctant, and standoffish, as though his success has been a curse and a burden.
All you have to do is look at videos of Ryun's races. He was a force of nature. Even compared to today's runners, he's a unique specimen. The reason why all modern runners are being compared back to Ryun is because Ryun is the gold standard.
Ryun is by far the GOAT, in every way.
Bullet the Blue Sky wrote:
Good info. To be fair, I googled and didn't find much.
Research existed before google.
Let's also not forget Shorter's prowess in cross country: 4x national champion.
he had it all: track, cross-country, roads...
Ryun definitely had more of the wow factor, but Franker had greater range: 2-miles to marathon.
malmo wrote:
Bullet the Blue Sky wrote:
Good info. To be fair, I googled and didn't find much.
Research existed before google.
But since you asked, Jim Ryun's meteoric rise
1962-63 HS sophomore
age 15
- 5:38 mile time trial
- 11:51 2 mile XC first time trial
- 11:23 4th is first JV race
- won the next JV race
- 10:36 in first varsity race, eventually becoming Wichita East's top runner
- 6th at State meet, leading the team to victory.
- 4:40 self-timed time trial during the winter of his sophomore year
- 4:32.2 loses his first mile race by 0.2 to defending State champ Charles Harper
- 4:26.5 down 15 meters with 100 to go, Ryun digs deep and finds that kick of his, winning his first mile over Harper.
- 4:21.7 leads from gun to tape for win #2
- 4:21.3 wins again, runs first 880, a leg of winning 2mi relay team
age 16
- wins another mile
- 4:16.2 wins state meet
- 4:08.2 MVAAU loses to college runner, doubles back with 1:54.5 880 (5th)
- 1:53.6 5th again, behind four college kids
- 4:07.8 USTFF 6th to college kids
during the Summer he ran 5 miles every day at 5:30am. The harder he worked, the more talented he became.
1963-64 Junior year
age 16
- Undefeated in cross country
- 4 mile AAU XC meet against college runners he finished 3rd
- indoor meet at Cow Palace (SF) Lindgren in race. Ryun stumbles off track then finishes well back in 9:22.6
age 17
- 4:06.4 wins state meet in national hs record time.
- 4:01.7 3rd in Modesto behind Burleson and O'Hara
- 3:59.0 8th in Compton, first ime that 8 runner had broken 4:00 in the same race, and the first time a hs kid broke 4:00.
- 1:50.3 5th in open competition
- 9:06.5 in KS allcomers
- 3:39.0 4th at AAU 1500m
- 3:46.1 4th NY Randalls Island OT
- 3:41.9 3rd LA Olympic Trials
- 3:44.4 4th Tokyo heats
- 3:55 DFL Tokyo semi
1964-65 senior year
age 17
- 4:07.2 State Indoor meet
- 4:04.4 Wichita East Invite
- 4:02.0 Hutchichson Invite
age 18
- 3:58.3 State meet win, first and only sub 4:00 in all hs competition
- 3:58.1 1st California Relays
- 3:56.8 Modesto 3rd behind Snell and Grelle
- 4:04.3 Golden West HS 1st
- 9:04 Golden West HS 1st
- 3:55.3 1st San Diego American Record, defeats Snell
- 3:40.4 2nd US/USSR dual meet
- 3:49.9 1st US/Poland dual meet
- 3:41.6 1st US/Germany
1965-66 Freshman college
age 18
- 3:42.7 1st Sugar Bowl
- 4:02.2 1st Millrose Games
- 4:03.9 1st Texas Relays
- 8:47.4 1st two mile SW Relays
- 3:58 4x1 mile Emporia Relays, ¾ of DMR, 47.6 on 4x440
- 3:59 DMR Kansas Relays
- 3:55.8 Kansas Relays
age 19
- 8:25.2 Los Angeles American Record, beats Grelle and Keino
- 3:53.7 Compton Relays 0.1 short of Jazy’s WR
- 1:44.9 World Record Terre Haute, IN
- 4:02.8 47.8 relay
- 3:58.6 AAU
- 3:51.3 World Record Berkeley
It was a tough vote; I came into running when Ryun was still the big deal and then thrilled at Shorter's accomplishments.
I think Ryun may have been one of the most talented runners ever. I wish there had been regular WCs and more money in the sport when he ran. His career might have been very different. I don't think he failed at Mexico City so much as Keino just ran a brilliant race (and that was only one of his races there). Probably without Ryun's earlier mono, or at sea level, things would have been different, but that's sport - you compete on the day.
One could also put LIndgren into the "if-only" category; such talent, early on.
Still, though, it has to be Shorter. He WAS the marathon 1970-1975, not to mention roads & CC.
just 17 wrote:
Lenny Leonard wrote:
He was 17...
I was just about to post that. Webb was 18 when he broke Ryun's HS record, AND Webb finished as an also ran. Ryun won over the MOST RECENT 1500 meter Olympic champion who had set the 1500 meter WR just ONE YEAR before losing to Ryun.
The race was the equivalent of someone taking Ryun when he wasn't at his best form and at the end if his career. Or like Keino beating him at Mexico in '68.
rocky mtns wrote:
Train at Altitude wrote:
If you know the Olympics are at altitude train at altitude.
I don't know for how long, but I do know Ryan did train at altitude (Alamosa, CO) prior to Mexico City. In Ryan's defense, Keino was born and raised at altitude. Even a prolonged training stint isn't the same thing. Not making excuses either. I also heard a story that Jack Daniels (or another physiologist) had convinced Ryan that no one could run faster than 3:37 at altitude and that perhaps Ryan let Keino go thinking he wouldn't be able maintain that pace. Could be nothing to that story as well.
In '68, altitude was still pretty much an unknown quantity for many athletes. In the distance races at Mexico, there were no stand-out performances, including from the runners who lived at altitude - apart from Keino's freak performance in the 1500. He never got near that time again - even at sea-level.
I thought it was bloody stupid giving the Games to a high altitude venue. It wasn't a level playing field for the distance competitors.
Both are on my Mt. Rushmore of American running immortals.
Not to be corny, but if they are Washington and Jefferson respectively, who you got as Lincoln and Roosevelt?
Look - Rupp is the GOAT - I don't like it, you don't like it, but it's the MFing truth. Shorter was our last great one before him, and Ryun was very fast for a short time.
Personally, I can't help but bump Ryun down because he's such an absolute dingleberry of a person. I lived in KS during his 2004 senate campaign. It was awful.
kw1954 wrote:
Let's also not forget Shorter's prowess in cross country: 4x national champion.
he had it all: track, cross-country, roads...
Ryun definitely had more of the wow factor, but Franker had greater range: 2-miles to marathon.
How is that “range?” All 2:10 marathoners are going to be halfway decent at the 10000m. That’s about how decent he was.
With the best races of his life, in 2019 he would have only been:
The 20th fastest 3000m
The 17th fastest 5000m
The 6th fastest 10000m (in a year where it was rarely run)
The 2nd fastest marathon
And that’s just one year.
Ryun was pretty talented -- broke 4 minutes in the mile in less than 2 years after taking his first step of running. Has anyone else, anywhere in the world, broken 4 that fast?
Lenny Leonard wrote:
kw1954 wrote:
Let's also not forget Shorter's prowess in cross country: 4x national champion.
he had it all: track, cross-country, roads...
Ryun definitely had more of the wow factor, but Franker had greater range: 2-miles to marathon.
How is that “range?” All 2:10 marathoners are going to be halfway decent at the 10000m. That’s about how decent he was.
With the best races of his life, in 2019 he would have only been:
The 20th fastest 3000m
The 17th fastest 5000m
The 6th fastest 10000m (in a year where it was rarely run)
The 2nd fastest marathon
And that’s just one year.
Shorter had an 8:26 indoor two-mile, a 12:52 3-mile (c. 13:18 5000?) 27:45 10,000. I don't think his marathon times were indicative of his ability. Probably at least a 2:08 guy today, or better. He wins the honors-won category over Ryun, but I think Ryun's overall won-loss record and marks are better so I'll go with Jim.
Train at Altitude wrote:
[quote]colorunner123 wrote:
Ryun probably would have won gold in '68 if the Olympics were at sea level. (7300 feet is REALLY high. By comparison, Denver is at only 5280 feet.)
I never understood this argument. If you know the Olympics are at altitude train at altitude. Everyone ran the same race and the best runner who properly acclimated won.
Keino grew up at altitude. NO way Ryun could acclimate that much.
Plus Ryun was just getting over mono.
Any GOAT contender of anything requires both records and medals, the former being much more important in my opinion.
Like Really Bros wrote:
Any GOAT contender of anything requires both records and medals, the former being much more important in my opinion.
I completely disagree. Records are nice but medals are far better. Medals mean you were the best in the world at the time on a particular day when everyone brought their A game. A record just means you're good at time trialing, and eventually your record will be beaten. If records are everything, then Webb is the American mile GOAT, but everyone knows he's not.
Frank won Fukuoka 4 consecutive times, he won gold and silver, and he was competitive at 2 miles up to marathon. He was great on the roads, cross country, and the track. He started the running boom. He ran insane mind boggling workouts, crazy mileage, won lots of important races that mattered, and he had something else that Ryun didn't, longevity. Frank is the American GOAT, hands down.
Trash post. Go read a book.
robert678 wrote:
I completely disagree. Records are nice but medals are far better.
No, they are not.
robert678 wrote: Medals mean you were the best in the world at the time on a particular day when everyone brought their A game.
So Stefano Baldini is a better marathoner than Geb, Bekele, and Khannouchi?
robert678 wrote:
A record just means you're good at time trialing, and eventually your record will be beaten. If records are everything, then Webb is the American mile GOAT, but everyone knows he's not.
I think you could easily argue that he
robert678 wrote:
He ran insane mind boggling workouts,
Ryun would do upwards of 40 x 1/4 in 62 seconds. He sometimes ran 70 miles a week JUST IN INTERVALS + easy running
robert678 wrote:
he had something else that Ryun didn't, longevity. Frank is the American GOAT, hands down.
Shorter and Ryun both had competitive periods that were roughly 8-10 years. Neither one was a Lagat type.
Armstronglivs wrote:
just 17 wrote:
I was just about to post that. Webb was 18 when he broke Ryun's HS record, AND Webb finished as an also ran. Ryun won over the MOST RECENT 1500 meter Olympic champion who had set the 1500 meter WR just ONE YEAR before losing to Ryun.
The race was the equivalent of someone taking Ryun when he wasn't at his best form and at the end if his career. Or like Keino beating him at Mexico in '68.
Actually, no. That mile was one of Snell's best ever.