casual obsever wrote:
Strongly disagree. Drug cheats shouldn't be considered for any GOAT title. That Salazar was included, is just absurd, not to mention against the self-given rules.
Along the same lines, neither Athletics West nor NOP should have been allowed. Letsrun could have made a strong point for clean sport, but of course they didn't. I suppose quite a few people don't vote for Joanie because of that.
You must be a very Casual Observer. Jenny was a patient of Dr. Brown.
As long as Matt Centrowitz is eliminated, who cares...
Unpaid Nike Intern wrote:
You must be a very Casual Observer. Jenny was a patient of Dr. Brown.
I am fully aware of that disgrace too. Note that I didn't discuss Jenny at all.
Dafny Schippers gets my vote.
One thing for certain is that Alexi Pappas is Greece's best female 10000m runner of all time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_records_in_athletics
Gangnam Style wrote:
I don't find it shocking at all. Jenny has one of the greatest American medal hauls and has competed in a vastly, nearly incomparably, superior era.
The problem I've run into is what the word "greatest" should mean. Does it take into account how the public looked at and idolized (or didn't) the athletes? That's why these are great debates -- different people value different things, i.e. times vs. medals vs. popular influence vs. contemporary success.
I'm more surprised Shorter and Ryun are winning by as much as they are. I thought Centrowitz should have beaten Ryun and just assumed Lagat would win this round.
Shorter and Rupp I think is a great matchup -- voted for Shorter, but not because I don't like Rupp/NOP. I figure he should actually be a double gold medalist. That's tough to beat, even with better times and similar results in a better era.
But Joan's 2:21 in crappy shoes would still put her in a very competitive position in this vastly superior era. Actually with modern training, shoe technology and whatnot, there're still only three women that have gone faster.
Anyway, we're kinda comparing apples to oranges here.
^ this. Also Joan held the marathon world record -- more than once? It was a back-and-forth with other greats, at a groundbreaking time for women's running. Put those women in modern shoes, what would they have been running? Joan was a total star and mega talent.
donairs wrote:
^ this. Also Joan held the marathon world record -- more than once? It was a back-and-forth with other greats, at a groundbreaking time for women's running. Put those women in modern shoes, what would they have been running? Joan was a total star and mega talent.
Joan is the reason so many women run today.
Women were not allowed to run distance in the Olympics, prior to 1980. Nothing longer than 1500. They said they were too weak. Joan, and all the other women marathoners of that era, pounded that to dust.
No, I don't care who wins your popularity contest.
Two great runners. One is bound to be heart broken. Jenny has been better at a variety of distances on the track, and has 4 times as many medals as Joan. Not to take away from what Joan did, because she was incredible, but Jenny simply was better during a more competitive time period. I chose Jenny simply because she passed the "medal test" and as icing on the cake, has had plenty of "Joannie level" moments in her career. To pretend Jenny isn't more accomplished in hardware is simply hindrance due to nostalgia. Certainly a tough competition.
Officialdb wrote:
It really is a travesty. last season i'm pretty sure Siffan hassan closed a 10k wigth a 1500 like one or two seconds off of jenny's PR..... she is a decent tactician but that's it. even a broken clock is right twice a day. in any honest paced 1500 she loses, and her resume doesn't hold an olympic gold which it really should to even make this comparison.
Her "broken clock" was right 4 times, 8 if you're just thinking finals. Take off the nostalgia goggles!
ventolin^5 wrote:
Gangnam Style wrote:
I don't find it shocking at all. Jenny has one of the greatest American medal hauls and has competed in a vastly, nearly incomparably, superior era.
The problem I've run into is what the word "greatest" should mean. Does it take into account how the public looked at and idolized (or didn't) the athletes? That's why these are great debates -- different people value different things, i.e. times vs. medals vs. popular influence vs. contemporary success.
I'm more surprised Shorter and Ryun are winning by as much as they are. I thought Centrowitz should have beaten Ryun and just assumed Lagat would win this round.
Shorter and Rupp I think is a great matchup -- voted for Shorter, but not because I don't like Rupp/NOP. I figure he should actually be a double gold medalist. That's tough to beat, even with better times and similar results in a better era.
Idiot
What about Ryun ~ 1'39"/3'24"/3'41"[\b] don't you understand?
If Ryan ran a 3:24 effort, where is his gold medal? Unless you are suggesting anybody who beat him was also capable of that.
I didn’t vote for either woman. I think they’re both tainted, Simpson maybe less so.
JBS was a little TOO good. Give her modern training, new shoes, super-picky race selection, race support, and better competition (all applicable today), and there is a legit argument that she is the WR-holder.
I don’t buy her act, I don’t care how many people she “inspired”. BJ inspired a lot of people, too.
George213 wrote:
Gangnam Style wrote:
I don't find it shocking at all. Jenny has one of the greatest American medal hauls and has competed in a vastly, nearly incomparably, superior era.
The problem I've run into is what the word "greatest" should mean. Does it take into account how the public looked at and idolized (or didn't) the athletes? That's why these are great debates -- different people value different things, i.e. times vs. medals vs. popular influence vs. contemporary success.
I'm more surprised Shorter and Ryun are winning by as much as they are. I thought Centrowitz should have beaten Ryun and just assumed Lagat would win this round.
Shorter and Rupp I think is a great matchup -- voted for Shorter, but not because I don't like Rupp/NOP. I figure he should actually be a double gold medalist. That's tough to beat, even with better times and similar results in a better era.
But Joan's 2:21 in crappy shoes would still put her in a very competitive position in this vastly superior era. Actually with modern training, shoe technology and whatnot, there're still only three women that have gone faster.
Anyway, we're kinda comparing apples to oranges here.
Actually with modern training, shoe technology and whatnot, there're still only three women that have gone faster.
Edit: of course I meant "only three women IN America have ever gone faster."
WinnytheBish wrote:
rojo wrote:
Currently Simpson leads 54 % to 46%.
Really?
Does anyone else find this shocking?
Or am I just biased because I was 11 when Jonanie won and sort of remember it as being a very big deal.
LRC Note: Voting ends Sunday night at 12 midnight ET.
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2020/04/american-distance-goat-vote-in-the-womens-semifinals/Two great runners. One is bound to be heart broken. Jenny has been better at a variety of distances on the track, and has 4 times as many medals as Joan. Not to take away from what Joan did, because she was incredible, but Jenny simply was better during a more competitive time period. I chose Jenny simply because she passed the "medal test" and as icing on the cake, has had plenty of "Joannie level" moments in her career. To pretend Jenny isn't more accomplished in hardware is simply hindrance due to nostalgia. Certainly a tough competition.
Medal-wise, Jenny has won more medels, but Joan still won the most important of all - an Olympic Gold. Speaking of time and records, Joan also held the WR for Marathon at one time. Yes, it was less competitive back then, but 2:21 and 2:24 in the marathon were nothing to sneeze at, even by today's standards, so I doubt Jenny has had plenty of Joannie's moments. The only thing Jenny stands out is versatility, She crushed it on that one. Overall I'm still tempted to choose Joan.
I found it weird that without much thought, I voted Shorter probably for nostalgic reasons tied to two Olympic medals and cultural impact but voted for Simpson because of resume when JBS is the same to me as Shorter.
I would agree that there's always going to be polling influence because of how the athletes were paired to start with. Was it totally random or biased by design?
My original picks on the men's side prior to the start of the tournament was Shorter, Rupp then Rogers but because of pairing, I had no chance to win the trifecta. Ryun would have tied for bronze in my bracket as well.
As far as my personal bias goes...I've been watching since Shorter was wearing Yale across his chest.
How can you be the GOAT if you never won Olympic Gold? Kind of lame. Jenny Simpson is the best "loser" of all-time for America? Is that what we're saying here?
And for the person that referenced her college career, I can't recall any great runner (Pre, Lindgren, Ritz, Goucher, etc.) ever getting DFL in her senior XC NCAA Championship race. Allegedly it was this race that prompted her Dr. Brown thyroid visit and TUE for the rest of her career.
It's nothing against Joan Benoit Samuelson. It's that some on here never really heard of her, or ever saw her compete. I did. I still do. She is unreal , even in her 50's.
Jenny Simpson is the now generation. That's all.
She won the World Championships and your made up origin story for Dr Brown is irrelevant.