Germany CANNOT be reporting accurately

Banana Bread wrote:

Germans are the greatest fighters as history has proved. That is why the numbers are lower. They are a small country that can take on those much bigger. Look at Barbarossa. They nearly beat a Red Army of 11 million. Look at Manstein's Miracle for example. A small army took back Kharkov when millions of Russians were attacking. That shows how resilient and tough as fukk the Germans are.

I have no other hobbies, so i'll bite. I initially wanted to give you a 5.9 for effort, since you almost squeaked by by naming a historical German figure (Friedrich I "Barbarossa") before WW2. Then I realized you were only talking about Operation Barbarossa, suggesting that you, like most non-Germans, reduce a millennium of German history to a single decade.

Germany if often used as the "counter-example" to state development in medieval and early-modern history. By that I mean one points to Germany to show "what went wrong", and to contrast it to "what went right" in e.g. England and France. In speaking of powerful states, the Holy Roman Empire was the grandest ideal and the weakest reality in Europe. It was predicated upon a vague notion of translatio imperii - the idea that the German kings, through papal sanction, inherited imperial honors of the ancient regime. However, it was a fragmented quilt of principalities in which the emperor's own domestic domain and income paled in comparison to their English and French (even Danish!) counterparts. They were too weak to counteract the centrifugal tendencies of the elective diets, whose members maintained near sovereignty in their own realms, and ruled adjacent to, and independent of, a string of other autonomous counts and city councils. All the while, the kingdom of England and the kingdom of France forged states (the one with a parliamentary leaning, the other with absolutist tendencies) that were stronger, more integrated and more well-functioning than that mustered by even the more celebrated emperors of the Hohenstaufen or Luxembourg houses.

German history is a rich one....the Hanseatic gems of the north, the banking dynasties of the south, the printing press, the Reformation etc etc. Indeed, one can argue that German culture was one of the great ingredients in the development of Central and Eastern Europe through e.g. the expansion of Crusader states and Lübeck and Magdeburg law, and the transplantation of imperial power to Bohemia in the late middle ages. However, as a political entity, "Germany" is a weakling in the long draw of history.

If we focus only on a brief period between ca. 1860 and 1945, it is indeed a powerhouse. But political propagandists in that era also scrambled comically for straws when trying to disprove the reality that German strength was unprecedented. They looked back to a mythical past, back to Charlemagne, whose greatness derived not from anything "German", but from the Gallo-Romano culture in which he was fostered, his appeals for Rome's promotion and his attacks on "German" (Saxon) culture. They also looked to "Barbarossa", whom they wanted to present as a German force, but in fact spent his energy trying to install himself in Italy and pretend to be Roman and Italian, showing comparatively little concern for his fragmented and feeble holdings north of the Alps. All the while, the talking heads in the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries knew deep down that the national pride driving them was rooted in the humiliation of past defeat, having been the whipping boy of Napoleon et al. Anyway, modern Germany is an outstanding country and great (federal) republic with excellent healthcare and medical research. But their efficiency in tackling the current crisis has nothing to do with their innate, historical virility.

Banana Bread wrote:

Germans are the greatest fighters as history has proved. That is why the numbers are lower. They are a small country that can take on those much bigger. Look at Barbarossa. They nearly beat a Red Army of 11 million. Look at Manstein's Miracle for example. A small army took back Kharkov when millions of Russians were attacking. That shows how resilient and tough as fukk the Germans are.

In Operation Barbarossa, the Axis outnumbered the Red Army 3.8 million to 2.8 million.

If you want to invoke numerical leverage against the USSR, no one comes close to the Finns in 1940.

not a historianologist wrote:

NotGreatEffortt wrote:

Look at the the numbers for Corona on Worldometer.com with specific attention on the death rate per capita. With the total number of cases being reported there is no way in hell they have sustained such a low death rate. Medicine in Germany is not magic, they are not more advanced than the other Euros and the US when it comes to intensive care methods. They must be withholding purposefully. Why are those numbers so low and why is Germany lying?

Not sure if their numbers are accurate, but I believe during the Black Death in the 1300s (also originated from Hubei province in China where Wuhan is!) Germany lost a much lower percentage of their population than neighboring countries did. Something like only 30% instead of 60%.

Those that survived the Black Death have developed immunity, why has this not been looked into or even reported as a variable by the main stream media.

Ahead of the Curve wrote:

I'm sure it doesn't hurt to have an actual scientist running your country.

Amen.

YMMV wrote:

Banana Bread wrote:

Germans are the greatest fighters as history has proved. That is why the numbers are lower. They are a small country that can take on those much bigger. Look at Barbarossa. They nearly beat a Red Army of 11 million. Look at Manstein's Miracle for example. A small army took back Kharkov when millions of Russians were attacking. That shows how resilient and tough as fukk the Germans are.

In Operation Barbarossa, the Axis outnumbered the Red Army 3.8 million to 2.8 million.

If you want to invoke numerical leverage against the USSR, no one comes close to the Finns in 1940.

Yep...you know your WW2 history. ? I would rank the Finns as one of the toughest in the European theater of the war (with Japan the toughest in the Pacific theater). The Winter War (1939-40) where the Finns fought the Soviet Union was incredible considering how badly they were outnumbered & outgunned by the Soviets. They used the cold, harsh winter conditions to their advantage. Their infantry would be dressed in white camouflage uniforms and would use skis to mobilize and fight (similar to modern day biathlon). They also had the distinction of fighting for both sides; first for the Axis and then toward the end of the war they changed sides to the Allies....crazy!

Ahead of the Curve wrote:

Look at their test rate relative to their population and the percent positive. I think they have tested a lot more healthier people. I assume if they get people tested and treated sooner, they have less spread and fewer deaths.

Under 10% of their tests have come back positive. The thing about medicine is if you treat people earlier, they never get to intensive care so your intensive care methods don't need to be better. I'm sure it doesn't hurt to have an actual scientist running your country.

In general I agree that the Testing and tracking might be why Germany looks so much better than some other countries - where many people are just told to stay home and wait.

However, I'm not sure about the treating people early part. There's no established treatment protocol for covid-19. That does not mean that Germany is not trying things. Maybe they are. Maybe it's working. I don't know.

Timmy Treadwell wrote:

The virus is racist. It seems to be disproportionately targeting certain types of people including people of African descent, people with diabetes, overweight. Also seems to be impacting Mediterranean people as well.

This seems borne out in looking at population groups in the USA. The highest percentage of illness in the USA Is in large cities and there it is disproportionately targeting African Americans. It is not targeting as heavily those of northern European descent, with areas like WI, MN, Iowa, not hit hard at all.

I think there are some physiological differences that should be looked at more closely.

There is evidence that vitamin B12 could reduce the virus replication.

African Americans have higher levels of serum B12 compared to other races.

There is also a prevalent gut bacteria that is correlated to both ethnicity and socioeconomic. It blocks the uptake of B12.

I think the countries that are having lower death rates are associated with B12 deficiencies. I would expect that these counties are more aware of it and so therefore the deficiency is more likely to be addressed.

More to come.

If you start testing a lot and massively from the start, shut down early (not like in the US were Trump did not face the facts), have a good (call it socialist you ignorants) healthcare system like Norway and Germany, you have personnel and equipment to ship to help other countries.

Germany has always did a good job, they are doing good! Sad about the deaths anyway... We live in such an historical moment right now!

valpo wrote:

Timmy Treadwell wrote:

The virus is racist. It seems to be disproportionately targeting certain types of people including people of African descent, people with diabetes, overweight. Also seems to be impacting Mediterranean people as well.

This seems borne out in looking at population groups in the USA. The highest percentage of illness in the USA Is in large cities and there it is disproportionately targeting African Americans. It is not targeting as heavily those of northern European descent, with areas like WI, MN, Iowa, not hit hard at all.

It's not targeting people of African descent, it's targeting people who are poor. People who are poor are more likely to have a host of other chronic health conditions. If it's targeting people of African descent why is it only targeting those people the US but not in Africa?

African American are poorer than African Africans. Wierd assertion.

longtimereaderfirsttimeposter wrote:

COVID 19 is a respiratory disease. Germany has less pollution than Spain and Italy. It only follows that they would have less of a problem with a respiratory disease. An individual's health and immune system is the best defense against a virus. German's have fewer cases because they are healthier than others because they were breathing cleaner air for years.

This, it’s no coincidence that those with comorbities are in the firing line, they are generally the least healthy. If you don’t look after yourself the lungs suffer.

Background: MD

A lot of misinformation in this thread, but some people have already stated the correct reasons for Germany's low Covid Death rate.

1. Testing. Germany has tested more extensively than the U.S.A. More importantly, the U.S. has focused their testing on the sickest and most symptomatic people, whereas Germany has tested more people with minor symptoms or even no symptoms at all but with COVID contacts. This will of course skew the death rate to be lower for Germany. The virus is MUCH more widespread in the U.S. than most people realize. We do not yet know the true penetrance of the virus until we test large swaths of asymptomatic people.

2. Healthcare. Germany has a good healthcare system. It is overall equivalent to the U.S. The U.S. does medicine a little differently, as it is primarily a fee-for-service model, so spending is higher, but I would say that they are both two of the top systems in the world. No one in either country is dying from lack of access, despite what the media would have you believe. And I mean no one. This is in contradistinction to Italy, which was overwhelmed due to a large density of very severe cases in a relatively small area.

3. Severity of spread. Germany shut things down quickly and prevented a huge amount of people from being exposed to high viral loads, unlike in NYC, where it was "go about your business" until it was too late...

its not always a good trait, but in this instance it is. German culture is known for being good at doing what the leaders say. leaders say stay at home..... germans stay at home..... american leaders say don't go to the beach...... americans say "ill go to the beach if i want.. thats my right!"

Yeah. Lots of problems with American healthcare. But the high death rate in NY compared to other parts of the country can't be blamed on the national healthcare system. And I don't know where you got the idea that the US got an earlier warning. Me thinks you watch too much CNN.

The next time I see Mick I'll ask him why he flew to Cleveland and not Berlin for that life saving heart surgery.

There's a group of 6 million Jews that would probably disagree with your position on the virtue of adherence to government dictates.

Germans are very law- and rule-governed in my experience of living in Berlin. If you did anything against their long series of unwritten and written customs, they'd let you know about it immediately. It was very easy to run afoul of their expectations in this regard. They will stand and wait for lights when no cars are around. But that doesn't exactly explain how they have such a small # of deaths in relation to the number of their cases. Belgium, the Netherlands, the UK, France, and Sweden all have good health care systems. Sweden, Norway, and Denmark have a very similar # of cases to one another relative to population but Sweden's death rate is twice that of Denmark and four times that of Norway.

Germany maybe has marginally cleaner air. Keep in mind that the government decided to shut down nuclear reactors and fire up brown coal power plants—using the dirtiest kind of coal. Industry is of course huge, and areas like the Rhine Valley, Ruhr Valley, and Stuttgart (not and exhaustive list) suffer from air pollution. Are germans healthier overall? I doubt it. They’re definitely more overweight than their neighbours though.