Tim Noakes\'s comment from Letsrun frontpage.

I tried to post a link but it didn't work. Let's try again:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

Yep - 358 References and counting. Although I don't think its necessary to cut and past all of them onto the message board because somebody can't go and look that info up for themselves.

You're right, you don't think if you believe that the onus of backing claims with facts is on the reader and not the person who makes the claims.

Noakes' book is a collection of good information on running contaminated with a smattering of ill-thought, unsupported personal assumptions. One of the most glaring of these is that a runner only has X number of good marathons in them... like they punch a card and when all the punches are gone they're out of luck. While top marathoners tend to run fewer top-notch races than a 10k type, it's a MARATHON and they're not going to race nearly as often. He reasserts this in that quote on the front page, and his attempt to support this assertion (references to just a few past marathoners) is pitifully weak at best.

I'd add the ridiculous Central Governor Model to the list of offensive assertions.

Sorry - I'm not following your logic. He/she stated that there was 358 Ref of TD Noakes on PubMed, which is correct. So he/she has supported their claim with facts (358 of them). I was able to think enough to perform a PubMed search, which apparently you're having difficulty with this evening. Maybe the server is down or you're too lazy or you'd like hard copies of each manuscript. Actually, the fact that Noakes is well-published should be common knowledge to an avid runner. And if you're too stubborn to believe it, then the burden of proof lies with you to perform a simple search.

How easy do I need to make it for you ? The submission doesn't appear in the URL, but I was able to pick through the URL. This URL should produce 308 Noakes-authored publications.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed&term=Noakes%20TD

You can keep attacking posts in a way which isn't pertinent but there have been many posts pointing out applicable parts of the book and posts showing that Noakes is credible. Are you going to retract your ridiculous statement about the worth of the book or keep insisting that we are a cult that blindly follows Tim Noakes?

contaminated with a smattering of ill-thought, unsupported personal assumptions.

I don't think it's accurate to call them "assumptions". They may be "opinions", or even "claims". He does make arguments to support these opinions or claims, he doesn't just "assume" them. You might not like the arguments, but they do exist.

The "central governor model" is not an "assertion". It is, as its name suggests, a model.

Dont know the actual weights, but Al Salazar looked bigger than Beardsley in the famous Boston Marathon heat duel of 1982.

According to Noakes it must have been medically impossible for him to win.

Considering that there are only about three of you bothering (and I must add that you are some very easy marks) and at least twice as many who have pointed out Emperor Noakes's lack of clothes, I'll go with the latter. The post made by "AH" above sums it up pretty well, along with "oldguy"'s comments.

Noakes, unfortunately, has become a garden-variety crank. Between his "Central Governor" idea and comments like the one that inspired this thread, I am not sure if this is even the same man who wrote the book I bought and devoured a dozen years ago.

I've studied with Noakes. He is very bright guy. Anyone in the field exercise physiology knows he controversial but generally well respected and he is very well published and accomplished as a scientist. He is also certainly known for putting forth "controversial" hypotheses. However, he bases these on the facts and likes to think "out of the box". This is good for science. He certainly can defend his ideas well and is NOT simply screaming out quacky ideas that no one respects. Last time I checked, good science involves people putting forth hypotheses and defending them. This is how thinking advances. Are you guys suggesting he has no right to argue his thesis? If he is wrong then people can disprove his ideas. And do you really believe that if he has one idea that gets disproved that this suddently makes every idea of his wrong? He, like any good scientist, will change his hypotheses as the evidence dictates. He's had some epic battles within the field and I think we all benefit from this whether or not everything he says is "right"...whatever that means. I recall a good debate between him and another FASCM when he was the keynote speaker at the American College of Sports Medicine National Meeting. Great way to broaden your thinking, no matter what side you are on.

Someone explain how the traditional energy depletion model explains the Ironman triathlon problem Noakes talks about in his book.

I think the governor idea is interesting.

I'll go with the latter.

For no other reason than to avoid having to admit that you're wrong.

Look, none of the comments by AH or oldguy alter the fact that Noakes is a highly respected researcher in his field, and none of those comments alter the fact that you have been WRONG all along.

Since you have not read anything of Noakes, don't know anything about him, and as far as one can tell, don't know anything about the field that he publishes in, you are not in any position to evaluate the accuracy of comments by AH and oldguy.

So stop trying to worm your way out of this. You were wrong, still are wrong, so just sit down and shut up.

Dont know the actual weights, ... According to Noakes

No data in, no prediction out. The model Noakes cited doesn't predict anything about people who "look" "bigger". But Salazar doesn't "look" that big anyway.

. wrote:

Dont know the actual weights, but Al Salazar looked bigger than Beardsley in the famous Boston Marathon heat duel of 1982.

According to Noakes it must have been medically impossible for him to win.

Care to discuss Salazar's preparation for the LA Olympics and what his major concern was and why he cut his vest to shreds etc, then you will reconsider.

How Sad,

I believe you asked about top runners whom Noakes has advised earlier in this thread? I know for a fact that he advises Gert Thys (2:06) extensively. I don't know for certain but I'm fairly sure that the others in that group like Tobias Hiskia, and the late Ian Syster (2:07), are advised by Noakes also. As others have pointed out, Noakes is not a coach, but he does have significant interaction with Thys.

Perhaps Noakes' Central Governor (TM) shut down his brain before he made that comment.

Just because you type it here and hit "post message" doesn't automatically make it true. Thank you Nomates for finally providing the answer that none of these jokers could. Do you know who coaches that group?