Ewerts INSANE long run

Math + Experience wrote:

Yeah and look at MP for a 3:37 1500 runner. You think Brazier can go pop off 12 miles at 4:56 and make it feel like a controlled effort?

There is a big difference between a mile specialist and a long-distance/XC specialist with a future in marathon, like Ewert. Brazier is WAY stronger anaerobically, so you can't just extrapolate his times and try to predict his MP or 2-2.5 hour race pace by putting his 1500 time in a calculator.

I do understand your point tho, and have to take care when putting someones time in a Daniel's or Tinman calculator and checking what the MP is. Maybe it was a harder effort for Ewert than I originally thought, and she can only race at that pace for 1.5-1.75 hours and not 2-2.5 hours, which would be closer to threshold (kinda between threshold and MP).

Or maybe she can race that pace for about 12 miles.

6:00 pace for a half marathon (1:18) age-grades to 10:40 for a 17-year old girl. I guarantee she can run that solo. Aerobically strong, but I suspect Wolfgram would beat her in a real 13.1.

Between Starliper (mile) Dudek (3K/xc) Tuohy (5K) Ewert (walks and 2M-HM) and Wolfgram (mar), this is BY FAR the deepest girl's class ever and the most overall range.

Math + Experience wrote:

Yeah and look at MP for a 3:37 1500 runner. You think Brazier can go pop off 12 miles at 4:56 and make it feel like a controlled effort?

Jakob Ingebrigtsen is a 3:30 1500 runner and he could pop off 12 miles at 4:50 pace at a controlled effort.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Math + Experience wrote:

Yeah and look at MP for a 3:37 1500 runner. You think Brazier can go pop off 12 miles at 4:56 and make it feel like a controlled effort?

Jakob Ingebrigtsen is a 3:30 1500 runner and he could pop off 12 miles at 4:50 pace at a controlled effort.

Jakob does 100+ MPW quite regularly and does a boat load of threshold work. Brazier relies mostly on his natural talent and not much long distance work(isn't his longest run ever something like 7 odd miles?).

In HS one time I ran a hard 10 miles solo just to see what I could do, I ran 6:17 pace. I ran 16:53 earlier in xc that year. I'm guessing this was just a hard long run for Ewert, and not an easy long run like what most regularly do. When I ran that hard 10 miler, it gave me plenty of confidence, but I probably needed like a week to fully recover from it. Big confidence booster, but does more harm than good. Lance Harter won't let her do stuff like that anymore when she gets to Arkansas.

robert678 wrote:

Lance Harter won't let her do stuff like that anymore when she gets to Arkansas.

Perhaps. But what will Matthew Downs day about it?

robert678 wrote:

In HS one time I ran a hard 10 miles solo just to see what I could do, I ran 6:17 pace. I ran 16:53 earlier in xc that year. I'm guessing this was just a hard long run for Ewert, and not an easy long run like what most regularly do. When I ran that hard 10 miler, it gave me plenty of confidence, but I probably needed like a week to fully recover from it. Big confidence booster, but does more harm than good. Lance Harter won't let her do stuff like that anymore when she gets to Arkansas.

It is actually a good session - 1 hour hard, close to TT-type of effort - to test someone's endurance/threshold. Lydiard had these runs in his base phase even. If she did the 6 min/mile during that run and still felt relatively relaxed, it is safe to say that her endurance is highly developed at the moment (race walking probably helps a lot).

Then, she could test her CV with a 30 min run like this and her aerobic power with a 6-9 min run (2400-3000m) and you get a good overview of her current strengths and weaknesses, and what she should work on in the summer now to get ready for college.

Lance Harter is not an "easy" coach. He often prescribes some extra work AFTER a workout is already done. For example, he recently prescribed 5x1k @5k pace and then instead of letting them go on a cd added on another Mile at a pretty brisk pace. That's great training, but it's going to be challenging even for Ewert. Harter is of course one of the best coaches on the NCAA circuit, but Ewert's HS coach kept her injury-free for 4 years, improved her year-after-year (last year she was "only" 3rd at NXN, this year already 2nd) and has apparently also done great work with her endurance. She will become a monster once she starts doing the hard workouts with Arkansas women.

A girl from Ohio ran 6:12 pace for 15 miles.

(When she was 11 years old)

12 miles at 5:55 pace shouldn't be that tough for an 18 year old. Actually I checked my sources and she pretty much raced the workout which I see nothing wrong with doing when there are no other races going on.

She's also a racewalker.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Lance Harter is not an "easy" coach. He often prescribes some extra work AFTER a workout is already done. For example, he recently prescribed 5x1k @5k pace and then instead of letting them go on a cd added on another Mile at a pretty brisk pace. That's great training, but it's going to be challenging even for Ewert. Harter is of course one of the best coaches on the NCAA circuit, but Ewert's HS coach kept her injury-free for 4 years, improved her year-after-year (last year she was "only" 3rd at NXN, this year already 2nd) and has apparently also done great work with her endurance. She will become a monster once she starts doing the hard workouts with Arkansas women.

Hm, not "Great" training, sorry.

Tinman would at most prescribe 400-600s @5k pace, and maybe finish with a threshold or 4x200 @mile down to 800 race effort.

The good news for Ewert is that Harter recently talked to Tinman (after being inspired by the BU results) and realized it would be best to switch to 8x1000 @107.2% of Tinman Tempo pace with 200m jog rests. This would have allowed them to win NCAAs for many more points, especially given that the muscle fiber makeup of the top 7 women (as seen in video) is about 71% ST and 29% FT on average.

Taking a talented runner like Ewert and giving this training should yield excellent results (given how well it has worked for the fairly untalented Drew Hunter).

Long story short, she raced the long run. Obviously very impressive but nothing mind blowing from a girl who finished 2nd at NXN and is a (supposedly) very aerobic runner.

something still does not add up. She can do this, and excel at XC, and ran a 2:12 leg on a 4x800 last Spring but cannot break 4:50 for a mile?

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

shootpost wrote:

So I was a 14:30 runner, so 4:40 mile pace. That would be 12 miles at 5:20 pace.

I maybe, maybe, could have done that. If I did it would have destroyed me- all out race effort. So no, not "pretty doable"

No real 14:30 runner would even struggle at 12 miles at 5:20, and definitely not be destroyed by that, haha. 5:20 is MP for a 14:30 runner, which should feel like a controlled effort with controlled breathing (tempo).

But I forgot this is LRC, where everyone is a self-proclaimed 14:30 runner or OTQ marathoner.

Not everyone; I was only a 14:5x guy back in the day. That run would have been HM race pace or close to it for me.

This is the sort of workout that people do a week or two before turning up injured or sick,or blow up in their big race, and don't understand why when training was going so well. I know this because I've seen it happen a lot, and done it to myself, over the course of forty years.

I suggest that you go knock out 12 at 5:52 pace and report back as to whether it was a controlled effort. Better yet, let us know how you feel the next few days.

FastTuohy wrote:

something still does not add up. She can do this, and excel at XC, and ran a 2:12 leg on a 4x800 last Spring but cannot break 4:50 for a mile?

She has about the same mile times as Thorvaldson, who she beat at NXN and has run 10:01 for full 2M.

YMMV wrote:

FastTuohy wrote:

something still does not add up. She can do this, and excel at XC, and ran a 2:12 leg on a 4x800 last Spring but cannot break 4:50 for a mile?

She has about the same mile times as Thorvaldson, who she beat at NXN and has run 10:01 for full 2M.

I don't know the Thorvaldson has run a serious mile - she has been 2 mile only in the big meets I think. Ewert has been in a number of 1 miles, and DMR anchors. Claire Walters ran 4:43 in the DMR and I don't think she is a speed demon, nor quite as strong in XC as Ewert.

FastTuohy wrote:

YMMV wrote:

She has about the same mile times as Thorvaldson, who she beat at NXN and has run 10:01 for full 2M.

I don't know the Thorvaldson has run a serious mile - she has been 2 mile only in the big meets I think. Ewert has been in a number of 1 miles, and DMR anchors. Claire Walters ran 4:43 in the DMR and I don't think she is a speed demon, nor quite as strong in XC as Ewert.

So you are saying that she is even more slow-twitch than Thorvaldson. Could be.

5x1k at 5k pace is EASY because you are doing the race volume with rest. It's like if you were to give someone 4x400 at mile pace. The mile at the end was no problem and the girls even saw it coming.

Keep in mind that workout was for the national championship winning XC team. Ewert right now is 17. That's why Tinman will always be a below average coach. 4 miles at 5k pace (with rest) is actually LESS TAXING than a 1 hour hard effort. A deflated ball will not roll.

She is 18 according to World Athletics.