Two sophomores sub-9:00 indoors at CT state opens

you're a troll wrote:

albanese wrote:

Actually the comment disrespect Tinman. I even called the kid fast.

Tinman's biggest criticism is that he just pounds aerobic work and never develops speed.

If you know the Puffer family, you should recommend they find another coach. Instead of running 5000m races as a 13-14 year old, he should be running 800s to work on developing some fast twitch muscle fibers.

As you can see by his post in this topic, Tinman is more interested in what Puffer can do for Tinman and not what Tinman can do for Puffer. Tinman doesn't care even a little bit about Puffer's long term potential.

Tinman said that he has Aiden run hills which work on developing fast twitch muscle fiber. You're a troll.

I wouldn’t say he’s a troll. He’s strong aerobically than he is in terms of speed by far. Puffer is an amazing athlete who works hard and hes a good dude. Albanese mentioned that he gets outkicked and seems to be lacking in speed, which is true.

Speed is typically developed through harder work though, maybe Tinman avoids short hard reps for a reason.

It’s incredible any of his athletes can ever even train given how long this guy goes on and on with the talking.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B82uwjAlC7P/

“Thanks time to wrap this u-“ “well actually here let me answer 4 questions you never asked”

you're a troll wrote:

albanese wrote:

Actually the comment disrespect Tinman. I even called the kid fast.

Tinman's biggest criticism is that he just pounds aerobic work and never develops speed.

If you know the Puffer family, you should recommend they find another coach. Instead of running 5000m races as a 13-14 year old, he should be running 800s to work on developing some fast twitch muscle fibers.

As you can see by his post in this topic, Tinman is more interested in what Puffer can do for Tinman and not what Tinman can do for Puffer. Tinman doesn't care even a little bit about Puffer's long term potential.

Tinman said that he has Aiden run hills which work on developing fast twitch muscle fiber. You're a troll.

According to the milesplit workout wednesday, Puffer he said he increased his mileage a lot over the summer. He was doing a workout every 3rd day, and the workouts were usually 12 miles in total.

Maybe he doesn’t have as much speed to outkick Sherry but Puffer did run a 417 1600m recently so he clearly has speed, I wouldn’t downplay that. It’s amazing there’s two national caliber runners, let alone sophomores, in CT.

What? These guys would easily run 4:12. 4:17 for a sub 9 guys says no speed.

another perspective wrote:

Maybe he doesn’t have as much speed to outkick Sherry but Puffer did run a 417 1600m recently so he clearly has speed, I wouldn’t downplay that. It’s amazing there’s two national caliber runners, let alone sophomores, in CT.

Watch the race. Puffer got stuck behind LAPPED RUNNERS because the kick they started 600m out of the finish was faster than Puffer was running his last 400m.

albanese wrote:

another perspective wrote:

Maybe he doesn’t have as much speed to outkick Sherry but Puffer did run a 417 1600m recently so he clearly has speed, I wouldn’t downplay that. It’s amazing there’s two national caliber runners, let alone sophomores, in CT.

Watch the race. Puffer got stuck behind LAPPED RUNNERS because the kick they started 600m out of the finish was faster than Puffer was running his last 400m.

And to be clear, it's not Puffer's fault....It's Tinman's fault!

The idea of speed work being risky or hurting long term development is not only wrong but neglectful.

sherry ran a 1:55 4x8 leg by himself when his team got last in the 4x8 at states.

Wow. This forum is filled with a lot of weird commentary. Two 15 year old boys from a relatively small state just both went sub 9:00 in the 3200. And they did it on a flat track. Why is there any criticism or critique. Their bodies have not matured. They are still so young. Just celebrate what they’ve accomplished. It’s really impressive. Amazing. Let’s just congratulate them.

The puffer kid looks like a child compared to the other kid.

This is a case of two talented young men for sure, one hit puberty first and has an advantage right now.

No dog in this fight, but once puffer hits puberty it’s game over for sherry.

Back in my day, I ran with 3 gentlemen that wound up qualifying for the Olympic trials (one of which qualified Olympics).

The difference in most conference races boiled

down to hit puberty first. As we got older the true talent began to show, And the gentleman that would later represent the USA was hands down much more talented.

Long winded, poor grammar aside when we were all sophomores it was a toss up.

Update: they ran 8:53 and 8:58 for 2 miles on a banked track at New Englands

You don't need fast all-out sprint speed to be a great miler, an event that's 80%+ aerobic. Tinman knows that and knows how to make his athletes win these races. Puffer is not gifted with great sprint speed, but is a great athlete with outstanding endurance and aerobic qualities.

Who was better in the 1500/Mile, El Guerrouj or Noah Ngeny, a fast-twitch monster with massive 100m speed and 1:43 800m? Who is currently better in the 1500/Mile, Cheruiyot or Lewandowski?

Ngeny, Lewandowski etc all got this great sprint speed and obviously better 800m times but as long as the race is fast enough, they will not win. Hunter beat Fisher multiple times in Mile races despite Fisher being attested to have faster 100m kick/speed at the end of races and faster 400m times at that time in HS. How? CV training allowed Hunter to start his kick 500-600m out and destroy others with this long, very fast finish.

There is always this complaint about Tinman not doing all-out sprint training in his program (like Magness, Canova, or many other coaches do), but he HAS already stated time and time again that it's not necessary for milers and up, a waste of adaptive energy and unnecessary injury risk. He isn't the only coach with that attitude. Most runners get injured from sprints, and not easy mileage even tho that often gets the blame.

On top of that, and also often stated by Tinman, is that sprint speed is highly genetic and depending on the amount of your fast-twitch muscle fibers. Someone like Bolt got an inherent speed advantage, even without training he would outsprint 99%+ of people even if they dedicate their whole life to maximize their sprint speed.

If you can decide to get Puffer from 13.5 100m dash (FAT) to 13.2 100m dash (FAT), OR to focus on building his stamina and endurance and get his threshold down from 5:00/mile to 4:50/mile, what do you think is gonna make him the better distance runner in the future?

Tinman might say a lot of crap but he is right about how to train distance runners for their specific events, with legit/allowed methods and within their natural range of talent/capabilities.

ct_trackfan wrote:

Wow. This forum is filled with a lot of weird commentary. Two 15 year old boys from a relatively small state just both went sub 9:00 in the 3200. And they did it on a flat track. Why is there any criticism or critique. Their bodies have not matured. They are still so young. Just celebrate what they’ve accomplished. It’s really impressive. Amazing. Let’s just congratulate them.

One post in this thread that makes sense. I know runners who gained a big speed boost simply by maturing, without any all-out sprint training in their early 20s. Some people just develop extremely late.

The worst thing their coaches could do right now is to hammer hard intervals at VO2MAX pace or faster at them, overrace them with 2x races a week and/or to do all-out sprinting, especially on the track on spikes. The coaches got one job - to keep these runners injury free, keep them with the sport/happy, and develop the basics for future success.

How did Salazar prescribing Mary Cain an all-out tempo followed by an all-out ladder (600,400,200) workout AFTER running a mile PR work out? Trying to maximize the potential in young HS kids and overload them can ruin whole careers, if I had a son I'd much rather have him train with Tinman like Drew Hunter did and remain injury-free with long-term development than to let a crazy coach hammer him with weekly all-out sprint sessions just so he can maybe outkick another fast guy in an insignificant HS race, granted he doesn't get injured or completely burned out from running all-out all the time at such young age.

LateRunnerPhil is the resident tinman fanboy, here to defend his hero. The tinman crew just got dominated at BU. All their slow running turned them into slow runners.

Speed DOES NOT cause injuries at a higher rate than volume. Common sense - your marathon runners are injured a lot more than your 800/1500 runners.

All the slow running has destructed any fast twist muscle fibers tinman's athletes might have had. This is again common sense - you aren't going to be in great 1500 shape or marathon shape at the same time. The volume actually HURTS your natural speed.

I also think Sherry has a swimming background. A lot of swimmers tend to look more developed because of the sport. I’d say remember Webb but he was also going bald so I think that might’ve been early development

For an “early developer” Webb also ran 3:46 sooo....

albanese wrote:

LateRunnerPhil is the resident tinman fanboy, here to defend his hero. The tinman crew just got dominated at BU. All their slow running turned them into slow runners.

Speed DOES NOT cause injuries at a higher rate than volume. Common sense - your marathon runners are injured a lot more than your 800/1500 runners.

All the slow running has destructed any fast twist muscle fibers tinman's athletes might have had. This is again common sense - you aren't going to be in great 1500 shape or marathon shape at the same time. The volume actually HURTS your natural speed.

Please keep in mind, we are talking here about HIGH SCHOOL athletes, not pro athletes. These runners and their bodies are still developing, and just keeping them healthy with moderate training will get them faster.

Do you really want to risk hard anaerobic intervals and/or max sprint sessions? The first can burn them out, make them suffer so hard that they think running is no fun anymore, while the second can easily pull a muscle or tendon or even worse things like stress fractures if done repeatedly without optimal form or strength in their body. These HS kids are aerobic monsters, but they are also fragile don't think they can handle the same intense training that a 25-year old elite miler can do (apart from that, you shouldn't even see Puffer as a miler. He will be a great long distance/XC specialist in the future).

JMJ wrote:

Agree! I’ve felt for years that western PA gets minimal XC respect because the courses are so brutal and times so slow. I believe only 3 runners have ever broke 16:00 on the PA District 7 (Pittsburgh) course at Cal U. I have to believe Patrick Anderson’s course record 15:41 would be sub 15 at Woodward Park. And this is a District that had only 2 runners break 16:00 all year but placed 6 in the top 13 at 3A State Meet and is sending 5 seniors to the following XC programs next year: UNC, NC State, Florida State, and Temple (2).

https://pa.milesplit.com/meets/339143/results/678093/formatted#.XlNMpCVOklQ

Came here to defend Leechman and the Wpial, but you all did a good job. First, Leach is a better track runner than a cross country runner. He would be the first to tell you that. He ran 9:12 last year at the outdoor state meet, and had a very big improvement XC wise this year, him running much faster on the track this year than he did last year makes sense.

Second, as others have pointed out, the Pittsburgh area courses are no joke. Patrick Anderson broke 16 at all of them; however, he didn't always go mid to low 15s. They were mainly in the 15:45 range. The kid went on to win FLNE, and take 3rd at FLN... That should say something about how tough some of the course around Pittsburgh are. To say Leach couldn't run sub 9 without the shoes bc he didn't break 16 in XC this year is ridiculous. Heck Larry Josh Edwards "only" ran 16:18 on the Wpial course this year (albeit early in the season). He broke 9 in the same race Leach did...

I didn't say anything about 2 high school athletes - the training theory is the same. If you don't train speed you will lose whatever natural speed you were born with. In fact, the younger you are, the GREATER THE NEGATIVE EFFECT of speed loss with high volume.

High volume without optimal form or strength is WAY WORSE than doing 1 speed session per week with poor form/strength.

High school sprinters do speed and they stay pretty healthy and they continue to improve in college and beyond.

Please read a book or two instead of only reading tinman interviews.

Nah man, the speed will still be there as we're born with the fibers for it.

Just gotta activate them