Incredible Read. Ross Tucker: The Vaporflys Need To Be Banned

Raggedman wrote:

old hobby jogging fart wrote:

Highly cushioned shoes are great, but for competitions, there should not be anything more than the mid and outsoles that are getting more and more efficient over time and not some additions like specially formed spring plates, or anything like that.

Part of the problem is that so many still think that the plate is acting as a spring.

Yes carbon fiber can act aa a spring but when you paste it the middle of a big stack of squishy foam and then have a 115 pound runner exert force on it with neither end of the plate attached to any thing how much do you think it’s going to deflect? Not much.

The shoes work by having the foam and the shape of the plate working in conjunction to in crease efficiency.

Whatever. It increases the springiness. Remove that additional technology and see how far ahead the actual shoe is compared to others with just foam as their midsole.

We are seeing this already in Canada. Top runners are foregoing sponsorship with one company so they can wear the new assistive technology advanced shoes by another company. The sport will be bifurcated with pros accessing specialty shoe technology and the amateur masses relegated to less scientifically advanced and personalized assistive footwear. The company has created two viable markets where there used to be one. Golf is moving in this direction and as a sport its well down the path.

Pathetic. I guess being a respected sport “scientist” isn’t enough anymore. I wonder where all of his outrage goes when he watches cycling. But I guess that hot take was not given much thought because it’s not that click-baity. This site and blowhards like Tucker have picked the lamest hill to die on. I give this site until the Olympic trials but this is no longer an aggregator of news. It has turned into First Take and Another First Take banging on the Cowboys or LeBron or Tebow endlessly. Pathetic

The bold blunt reality is it doesn't matter one iota what Ross Johnson or Robert Tucker believe or want.

The rules are set. It is time to move on.

The Next% and those made by other companies that may have similar proprieties are here to stay. I dare say that in five to ten years the entire running community will look back at these times was wonder what all the hubbub was about.

Detractors, please please stop your insistent whining. If you are bent on complaining about something, may I suggest you instead discuss the lack of competitive results from most (not all) top tier U.S. distance runners.

Next please. Or perhaps should I say Next%, please?

I think the fact that we are having this debate shows that it is a problem. The fact that there is such a focus on a specific technology in a shoe, instead of performances, training, nutrition, or talent, proves that that technology is a problem that must be dealt with.

sesamoiditis wrote:

60-90sec wrote:

Maybe we need to get rid of nutrition and modern training.

Better nutrition and better training make athletes better and therefore faster. Mechanical advances in shoes don’t make athletes better on faster. Your faulty comparison only distracts from the debate.

Then let's allow EPO. That will make the athlete faster.

MelRnr wrote:

I think the fact that we are having this debate shows that it is a problem. The fact that there is such a focus on a specific technology in a shoe, instead of performances, training, nutrition, or talent, proves that that technology is a problem that must be dealt with.

Well said my friend.

epicTCK wrote:

Skeeter wrote:

No-one is doubting that Kipchoge would probably still be the goat without the Vaporfly.

No. That is exactly why s hole places like Letsrun.com exists. Too push their b s politics on people like Kipchoge at every opportunity.

I am Sam wrote:

Some shoes offer better cushioning and other shoes return more energy. What we haven't proven that they do, other than mechanically powered ones, is that they provide you with external energy.

To everyone on here who spouts arguments like the one above or the one of "Just don't sign a contract with an inferior company", let me address you.

This is real simple.

Imagine if someone not named Nike had invented this shoe and Kipchoge was regularly getting crushed in marathons as a result. Imagine what the sport would have lost. A LOT.

Or think of it this way. What if this technology existed for spikes and suddenly Ben True was the best 5000 runner in the world? (A 2% advantage for a 13 flat runner would be 15 seconds). If this technology existed in the 1500 and you gave it to Stewart McSweyn, he'd be dominating the world (4.5 seconds) instead of failing to make the final. Give it to Craig Engels and he's suddenly crushing Jakob Ingebrigtsen on a regular basis.

And to everyone who says "Just sign with another company."That's great and all but most athletes are locked into multi-year deals. If I was them, I"d beg my sponsor to buy the vaporflys and change the upper but that's time intensive and expensive.

And what about kids in college? Do you really expect college kids to transfer to another school so they can run in a certain brand's shoes? Do we really want college races decided by which track teams can afford $250 shoes that last for about 200 miles? I think the bigger issue is potentially in college.

Yes a pair of spikes might be better in races with turns but lets' say a $500 shoe is invented that gives people a 3% gain in performance. Do we really only want the rich to succeed in the sport?

Swimming long ago decided that there needed to be limits to technology. They don't want access to certain swimwear to be critical to the outcome of a race.

rojo, what do you think of Rhonex Kipruto's 26.24 10k in old fashioned Adidas flats?

How do you explain that?

rojo wrote:

Swimming long ago decided that there needed to be limits to technology. They don't want access to certain swimwear to be critical to the outcome of a race.

Speed skating embraced the game changing clap skate and didn't suffer.

Tucker gets $$ from other shoe companies. Of course he thinks nikes should get banned. The only joke here is Tucker

rojo wrote:

Or think of it this way. What if this technology existed for spikes and suddenly Ben True was the best 5000 runner in the world? (A 2% advantage for a 13 flat runner would be 15 seconds). If this technology existed in the 1500 and you gave it to Stewart McSweyn, he'd be dominating the world (4.5 seconds) instead of failing to make the final. Give it to Craig Engels and he's suddenly crushing Jakob Ingebrigtsen on a regular basis.

Rojo, that's not how a 2% advantage plays out in a distance race. Drafting increases economy by close to 6%, so unless you're already the best in the world, Vaporflys aren't going to let you run away from people. It's also not at all clear that Vaporflys are even advantageous in a championship track race where closing speed is king. I know that I certainly can't run a 200 in my Vaporflys as fast as I can in more traditional flats or spikes.

Anyway, there's a huge gulf between "shoes should be regulated" (most people agree on that) and what Ross Tucker is saying. An earlier poster already offered a pretty thorough critique of his entire argument, but I'll also point out that to the extend you're crediting him simply because he's Ross Tucker, this is the guy who previously argued that Vaporflys should be banned "because they're springs."

I've tried to travel through Frankfurt airport twice in the last year, and both times I said to myself (and maybe out loud to people around me) f*ing Frankfurt!

I wish they would ban me from Frankfurt. Instead I got banned from LRC... :-)

.

One of the big reasons they took away Lance's from the record books is because he was riding a carben bike when other guys bikes were made of metal. Estimated by scientists to be 6% faster in the wind tunel.

I really hate the argument that some people are more efficient with the Vaporflies than others. No kidding. Same can be set for any variable, supplement, or diet. If we are so concerned now with technology, then we need to level set to barefoot competitions only. Athletes should only do same training and also have same diets.

I remember a few years back when Ryan Hall was still the man, and there was talk of his custom Asics made with corn husks or something like that. Didn't hear anyone yelling and screaming about unfair shoes then.

Purists are the worst and hold back progress.

Great piece.

sesamoiditis wrote:

Woss is deluded wrote:

What Ross Tucker never says is that he is on the Adidas payroll. He flips with the wind exactly the same story with Caster Semenya he went to the side that paid him.

He actually does say that he gets paid by adidas.

He added it to the story after he got called out on Twitter for not mentioning it.

bump