Marcus says that 200s after a tempo are USELESS. Completely contradicts TINMAN training

Tinman’s tempos are 5k race pace +1 minute and the 200’s are not sprints.

Also - Tinman defines his tempo pace as close to 1 hr race pace so if you were actually going to do an hour long tempo run, I’m guessing it would be quite a bit slower if you were influenced by Tinman dynamics,

Except of course that middle distance runners have to run very fast - but not absolutely as fast as they are capable of running - at the end of a race when they are, possibly, very tired. Totally different to sprinting when fresh.

Lots of successful coaches from Igloi through to Harry Wilson (Ovett) and John Anderson (Dave Moorcroft) had their runners do fast work at the end of a session when they were very, very tired. Makes sense!!

As someone who had organic chemistry, physiology, biochem, an d molecular...yes, you are right. The sheer number of reactions happening in a cell every second is ridiculous. To hope even to train the four biggies: glycolysis, Krebs, acetyl-coA, and oxidative phos, takes a lifetime!

it's up to you wrote:

makes sense to me wrote:

If a world class 1500m to Marathon man, maybe you do your ten mile tempo runs a bit under 47:30. If you're a 15:30 to 1630 5K XC runner, maybe you do your ten mile tempo runs a bit under 57:30.

Ten mile tempo runs, for me, more times than not means sore Achilles toward the end and after run. Life is risk/reward. Doing sprints immediately after tempo runs exponentially increases probability of Achilles rupture. I prefer doing sprints in a separate workout. If you gals & guys want to do 200m sprints after tempo runs, you will do what you want to do.

If you're stupid enough to do 10 mile tempo runs that quick and then do 200m sprints, then yes that's too much.

Who trains like that?

Are you stating you are a 15:30 to 16:30 5K XC or were a 15:30 to 16:30 5K XC and you do not or did not do your ten mile tempo runs sub 57:30? Please tell me you are not a 21 5K road runner commenting.

200s are strides

Strides after a tempo get you use to running fast at the end of a race. Salazar also had his Olympic medalists doing this. It makes sense.

Yes this training does not develop top end speed like flying 30s do. However a distance race never involves top end speed. So there’s no need to develop it. If you plan on becoming the next Usain Bolt then yeah strides at the end of a tempo are useless. If your goal is the next Bekele then they are quite meaningful.

my 3 cents wrote:

200s are strides

Strides after a tempo get you use to running fast at the end of a race. Salazar also had his Olympic medalists doing this. It makes sense.

Yes this training does not develop top end speed like flying 30s do. However a distance race never involves top end speed. So there’s no need to develop it. If you plan on becoming the next Usain Bolt then yeah strides at the end of a tempo are useless. If your goal is the next Bekele then they are quite meaningful.

I agree with you, but that's exactly the point of JMar/Magness training. They prescribe these all-out hill sprints and then flat-springs, like flying 30s or 60m dashes, up to 100m with 10 min rest to distance runners. Even Kieffer had to do it in marathon training, and it was the main reason she parted ways with Magness, her ST legs just never felt good during these sprints.

Tinman on the other hand believes that the all-out 30 dash time has ZERO relevance to how fast someone can run a mile. He believes that sprinting is great for sprinters - and distance runners should definitely include very fast running, but not completely all-out.

Seems to me he just likes to make hard POINTS to get talked about.

Ridiculous anyone would use 200's to build pure speed, let alone after a tempo run.

200's definitely aren't worthless after a tempo run. Matter of fact, it's great way to teach athletes how to change gears and learn to kick. Yes I said LEARN.

Some people it comes naturally, others it takes workouts like the above to get an athlete mentally conditioned as well as physically to learn to switch those gears and hit that top end speed at the end of a race.

This won't have an impact on your actual top end speed, that can only be done through 40's - 60m sprints.

Dude is purposely a hack.

Jerry Maguire wrote:

Seems to me he just likes to make hard POINTS to get talked about.

Ridiculous anyone would use 200's to build pure speed, let alone after a tempo run.

200's definitely aren't worthless after a tempo run. Matter of fact, it's great way to teach athletes how to change gears and learn to kick. Yes I said LEARN.

Some people it comes naturally, others it takes workouts like the above to get an athlete mentally conditioned as well as physically to learn to switch those gears and hit that top end speed at the end of a race.

This won't have an impact on your actual top end speed, that can only be done through 40's - 60m sprints.

Dude is purposely a hack.

No, you don't learn to kick. A strong kick means having something left in the tank. If a 4:00 miler goes through the 1320 in 2:58, he's not going to kick, no matter how he trains. If he can improve to 3:55, then he will be able to kick.

Much appreciated!

My two cents as someone who has done many workouts of tempo + reps in one session and a morning/afternoon split workout:

The purpose of the “reps” in a single session tempo + reps is not to build pure top end speed. Anybody who has done such a workout knows this and it should be obvious thinking about it at all. The entire point of doing short reps after a tempo is to be a little tired and training to run faster than the tempo, likely something relevant to goal race pace. Put another way, the point of the workout is to get a longer, more fundamental aerobic stimulus plus some shorter race specific work, with the value of the reps being amplified by running on tired legs and the overall volume of such a workout (because it ends up being a sneakily bulky session). I always did these workouts with my goal race distance and pace in mind. Some examples:

Half marathon specific: 7-9 mile tempo + 4 x 800 at just under goal pace

5k-10k: 5-7 mile tempo + 6 x 400 at just under goal pace

1500: 4-5 mile tempo + 4-3-2 or 4x300 or 4x200 at race effort

Doing such a workout as a split morning/afternoon session is different. Many times I have done a 6-8 mile morning tempo and 8x200 in the afternoon. The 200s were supposed to be smooth and controlled but I think we always ran them too fast because it was so short - often averaging 31s or so, when 5k pace was more like 35. Again though never going into these shooting for max speed. I did try the short hill sprint thing for a fall season but found it to be just too time consuming for “real life” - 6 x 10 second hills done at max speed with the proper rest to allow no speed decay can take 45 minutes!

UmbrellaMans wrote:

Listened to the final surge podcast where Jonathan Marcus says that 200s after a tempo are useless because the body is too tired. This completely goes against Tom Schwartz’s idea that athletes should run a variety of paces in workouts and they often finish with hill repeats or other forms of speed.

Personally I’m going to side with Tinman. at the very least I feel like I am working on form if I do speed after a tempo run. Marcus also compares 200s to drinking beer before the SAT. Absolutely horrible argument as the two are not related at all.

Just listened to the podcast.

He makes alot of good points.

The main point he makes is you will run faster if you do your 200s first.

I guess he's talking about quality over quantity for the most part.

To get faster you would want to run the 200s first all out to get more " quality " in.

IF you're doing tempo runs one day then it's obvious that the main event that day is going to be the tempo runs and not so much focus on the 200s afterwards.

There are speed days for 200s where speed is the main focus. Trying to do them both in the same day doesn't really work.

Also they are pretty broad statements.

I would need more specifics.

1. Such as how far are the tempo runs? Temperature? Elevation. Height weight.

2. What is the exact tempo workout being done that day? What is the person training for>? What is the exact distance of the tempo runs?

3. How many 200s is he talking about? What is the time frame between the end of the tempo runs and the 200s?

4. What is the rest time on the 200s?

5. Did the person eat before the 200s? How much water did they drink?

6. Are they wearing track spikes for the tempo runs or regular shoes?

7. What type of track spikes?

8. What is the overall goal of the athlete? What is their main race? Do they run th 1500, 5K, 10K, etc...? What are they training for? What are their goals for that year?

I wonder if the Ethiopian athletes and coaching staff are laughing their skinny azzes off after reading this..?! When do you need speed; at the end of a race to make your kick over the final 2000, 1000, 800, 600, 400, 200. Just talking about this guy has given him wayyy more attention than he deserves. Do 200s before during and after a tempo .. who cares. All of it is beneficial..all of it.

I seldom mix different objectives in a workout. Why? Let me explain with a different phenomenon other than running. When building modern houses nowadays they puts together the different segments separately and then they just puts it together into a functionally finished house.

It doesn`t matter in a race if you have trained to finish your workout fast with 200s if the level of fatigue in the race at the end are higher than in the training. If you can`t follow the pace in the race relatively " comfortable" and stay to the finish it´s wasted time you have spent trying to finish a workout with fast 200s.It`s not a matter of willpower but more a pure physiological obvious....

The other way around by first running fast 200s and then e.g a tempo run is also counterproductive and wasted training time to get a perfect tempo run.

As another example of world class runners we can look at the coming Olympics at 10000m . Rhonex Kipruto is hopeless if it comes to a 400m sprint the last lap against e.g Mo Farah if the total pace in the race until the last lap hasn`t been fast enough. Rhonex chance to get the gold is to force the pace close to the world record and then make it impossible for Mo to follow the pace or to be totally exhausted to be able to sprint near his best.

200s after for maintenance. 200s (or whatever distance) on their own for development.

though as others have said, if you have not introduced any speed work at all, 200s after a tempo will develop some speed.

[quote]SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

It doesn`t matter in a race if you have trained to finish your workout fast with 200s if the level of fatigue in the race at the end are higher than in the training. If you can`t follow the pace in the race relatively " comfortable" and stay to the finish it´s wasted time you have spent trying to finish a workout with fast 200s./quote]

Thanks JS. Now you know why Phil couldn't run a fast marathon! His low mileage and lack of cumulative fatigue in his training did a terrible job at preparing him for the soul crushing fatigue he felt in the marathon.

I'm glad you finally realized it!

I agree with this. though i think 200s after tempo or regular run are good for maintenance of economy. basically running them as you would typical post run strides. Good for base work. Or during a training season where you don't find time to get faster work in on it's own.

The human system works together though. You have to balance working on specifics in combination and isolation. The 200s after the tempo might not be a great use of time from a physiological perspective, but might be hugely beneficial if you adhere to Noakes Central Governor theory. Just because you have the ability to charge hard at the end of the race doesn't mean you will use it unless your brain is willing to open the floodgates. This is why Jerry Maguire has noted above that kicking is a learned skill. You don't necessarily learn to be faster from a muscle perspective, you condition your brain to realize you can kick while also maintaining self-preservation.

Math Wannabee wrote:

The human system works together though. You have to balance working on specifics in combination and isolation. The 200s after the tempo might not be a great use of time from a physiological perspective, but might be hugely beneficial if you adhere to Noakes Central Governor theory. Just because you have the ability to charge hard at the end of the race doesn't mean you will use it unless your brain is willing to open the floodgates. This is why Jerry Maguire has noted above that kicking is a learned skill. You don't necessarily learn to be faster from a muscle perspective, you condition your brain to realize you can kick while also maintaining self-preservation.

sure. this is why we often finish the last lap of an interval workout as hard as we can. And for people who race very often (maybe too often) they will get that practice through your weekly races. im not sure that tempo runs, as prescribed by TInman, are intense enough to give you anywhere near end of race fatigue levels, so that post run 200s will work as kicking practice, as far as central governor theory is concerned.