Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 10/27/19

RS - Thank for your input! You are the thread resident ultra expert, so it's very much appreciated.

You pretty much hit my very preliminary plan right on - 8 minute place with 15-20 minute walking through aid stations.

The course is mostly asphalt. Great for pounding! Good insights on the nutrition. For salt, I'm looking at broth + salt covered sweet potatoes. I'll be less reliant than many on the aid stations, as my wife will be all over the course. That's the advantage to the loop structure and proximity to home.

Looking forward to your next ultra after rocking XC this December!

Pappy wrote:

RunGuy Midwest: One is on Sunday the 24th the other is on Thanksgiving. the 24th is a 5k, hopefully break 22 in it. The second one is a 5 miler which has a tricky elevation profile. I'm pretty much an aerobic weakling still. I'm not looking forward to the 180+ foot hill in the first mile. My splits will probably be all over the place in that one.

This didn't answer your question. Why I'm running 2 is because I'm a big wimp when it comes to doing Vo2max type workouts. I just do not have it in me when it comes to race pace work training alone. I want to get some Vo2max in before the weather turns to crud so races will have to do. Actually thinking of another 5k on Dec 7th. That'd give me 3 good workouts before I go into more of a base building phase.

This is a pretty wild long run, and I was kinda debating if I could even do it. Needless to say, I'd say you have pretty big potential on the roads. For pacing, I think a move I might do if I were you would be to create a little transition between the E and M miles. If you build in something like a few surges/strides to get your heart-rate up a bit, you can maybe dial into that M pace right off the bat and not come in a tad slower and feel the urge to drop down from M pace mile 1 to 2 as drastically.

Page 1

Good vibes to jq, slo, Coach Jeff, rrr, GT, maybe AJ, OR darkwave and anyone else approaching The Big Race.

Thanks to all for the encouragement the past few weeks. Being injured suuuuucks but hanging around the thread helps. And thanks to Stone for the marital advice.

Nice guy: back to back big weeks, nice work!

rrr: Pulling for you man, hope it clears up soon. Gotta stay positive

darkwave: Big week coming out of a HM

SI and TL: Thanks for breaking it down last week. My eyes tend to glaze over at long columns of numbers and full cycle data. Your conversation was a more accessible application of concepts.

Hobby jogger: great consistency!

Highhoppingworm: Welcome! Really strong week.

rucker: Wow, now that is cross training.

Good morning Road Runners.

Well my best laid plans were for naught. I deferred some earlier races on the GP circuit due to work schedule earlier in the year, and the penultimate race (5K XC in San Diego) was just two weeks ago and I didn't really want both trips, figuring I could wrap (best 5 races) this up at the final event. If I stayed healthy.

Everything was good until Wednesday.

M - 5.5 recovery

T - 9.2 with 2X 2 and 2X 3 min reps, 3X 20 sec pick ups

W - WTF Wednesday, planned for 1:00-1:05 easy, but cut it short at 45 (5.6 miles) because my lower back and glutes were getting tight.

Th - planned rest day

F - unplanned rest day but out of caution for race, rested/traveled.

S - 10.3 with 15K race, but only raced to about 6.7 miles, after that had to walk and jog back in because of the injury (SI joint). First mile was okay, 2-4 or 5 were off by 10-15 seconds a mile compared to last year (but it felt like I was pushing just as hard). Wheels started coming off on the 6th mile a downhill in 6:40 (compared to 5:50 last year). I made it to 6.7 before having to stop and walk-jog the rest of the way in. Somewhat better now than over the weekend, but not running yet and it might be a few weeks or months before I'm able to do so. Following up with doctor visits to get a diagnosis and start working on a treatment plan.

Su - 0, and hobbled

Just want to say thanks for the support, motivation and encouragement over the past year or so. It's been a good run, but my body is telling me to take a break. But I'll be back.

TL - A little more discussion from last week. Sorry I tend to keep too many irons in the proverbial fire so I can be a bit distracted and delayed to respond to the thread.

I 'll start with putting things in perspective. I realize that everyone has lots of other things going on in their lives so finding more time to do more with your training may be difficult. Increasing your training load might make you more susceptible to injury as well. Don't stress about missing a run or workout because you have other commitments or need to rehab an injury. Being motivated to achieve a goal is good, but sometimes we can obsess over our goals to the detriment of other things. That's a long way of saying that you should be flexible with your training.

Balancing days on vs. days off - I really don't feel qualified to tell you how to balance training days with days off. I'd say do that in a way that works with your other obligations. For me I normally train 6 days a week w/ Sundays off, but recently as I got into the meat of a training cycle I started training 7 days a week making that additional day an active recovery day without a specific time or mileage goal for that day. Staying injury free should also be considered both in terms of your total mileage and for days off.

Weekday easy run duration - I usually shoot for an hour. For you I would estimate that to be 7-8mi. It took me a bit to realize that I needed to slow these runs down in order to get the mileage in. After a big workout it is difficult to keep the mileage in these runs without slowing them down and recover enough for your next workout.

Running with your fiancé - Value the time that you train with your fiancé. Doubling is fine and will likely up your total mileage but I think you should keep with a weekday run of at least an hour for a single run. I've run with my wife while I was getting her ready for her first half marathon, we were at 12-13 mi/min pace. I would need to look at the details of what was going on at the time but I do remember after dropping her off at home I would continue the run doing something at a faster effort. It could be at my usual easy pace or something harder at threshold pace. I found it took a bit to hit threshold pace after spending a first few miles shuffling. I may have doubled on a few of these days too. I think that 9-10min/mi pace is good for recovery and this may be a good way to keep you reigned for your easy runs so that you are recovered enough for your workouts. When it came to the weekend long run, I would not compromise on pace so we would run an out an back where I would do the first mile as a warmup with her and then break off at my own pace. Being an out and back I could say hi as a passed her a couple of times. Running on a track is another good option where you can be somewhat together while each of you can run at a different pace. Normally I don't do drills, but when I was doing those slow runs with my wife I found it a convenient time to do drills and strides.

Racing is a good way of getting in workouts and evaluating your fitness. I'm not sure I could execute a solo time trial as well as a race to determine my current fitness level. So I use a race to evaluate where I am and as a workout.

I do appreciate the kind words that others have expressed, but I don't think I am all that qualified to give out training advice beyond a certain level. I'm still learning. After all I did not take training seriously till 2018. I do admit that once I did take my training seriously I achieved goals that I did not think would have been possible a year earlier.

Male, 26, 6’4”, 143lbs

PRs: 4:54 (mile), 16:56, 1:18:00, 28:01 (8k 2015), 2:47:14 (all 2018 but 8k)

Goal: Club XC Nationals 10k: ~35min 10k

Mn - 8 @7:25s & 8x12s hill sprints

Tu - 3600, 4800, 1200 + WU/WD = 11.5

Wd - 8.5 @ 8:10s

Th - 4800 Tempo + WU/WD = 7

Fr - 8 @ 7:45s

Sa - 4.5 @ 8:40s

Su - 12 @ 8:10s

Total - 60

Back to running with the wife after her post marathon downweek, she was extra sluggish over the weekend, not sure why (I was too but that correlates to a different slow pace ie high 7s)

Tu - 14:15 18:52 4:15, was pacing some guys in a 2x4800 @ 6:20ish but started late, then did 1200 solo harder

Th - 17:39 for 4800 or 5:55/mi, good

Shooting for 1xhill sprints 2xstrides throughout the week, was 1/3 this week (2/3 last week). Also need to do some body-weight work, haven't in a long time

-RS

Thanks SI. All helpful stuff. My motivation is at an all-time high level right now, so having things to shoot for in training is exactly what I need.

On the positive side of my post-marathon recovery it appears I've kept the wait off and am settling into the 152-155 range. Probably going to lose in the holidays but we will see. On the negative, the knee thing continues to crop up, so I just hope it's away by Turkey Trot time. Just trying to tread water running-wise until then.

pewow! missed you man. was wondering if you were update. i'm also missing the beastliness of Bruin. healing wishes. sounds like time to start laying the groundwork for a blazing Shamrock 8k

Coyote- sorry to hear about that. smart move to shut it down.

R3- hope you are on the up and up.

GNR- great half marathon man. brisk

stat- solid week with the repeats, race and long run. seeds of greatness

Coach Jeff- yes, i have used short hard tapers before. actually of my 4 PRs that i'd consider "less worse" (5k, 8k, half and marathon), three of them were run off of no taper at all. but i've had good luck this far with freshening up just enough before races. For my best races relative to perceived fitness (Houston Half 2018, BAA 5k 2017 and Brooklyn Half 2017) and my last couple marathons, I felt like this taper approach worked out well. Before that I would come in super flat off longer tapers...i think i lose fitness pretty quickly, gain weight quickly and i must also have virtually no fast twitch fibers... keeping the volume up with some easy running seems to help me. i'm not advocating this as a universal principle for tapering...just what has worked best for me so far through trial and error.

GNR1 - How did I miss that...that 1:08! Sorry, brother. What a great effort. You rock!

M49 5'8", 132lbs

Goal: Memphis St. Jude's Marathon, 2:37-38

A little late to the game this week, but better late than never. Increased mileage up to 62 and feeling pretty good. Although I did feel a little marathon left in my legs on my 20 miler this Sunday.

M: off

T: 8 w/ 2 x 1 mile mini treadmill workout (5:33, 5;30, 1/4 recovery jog)

W: 8 easy

Th: 8 easy

F: 8 easy

Sat: 10 w/ 10K tempo at 5:45 pace (treadmill); felt good

Sun: 20 at 7:11 avg; felt tired the last 5 miles

Today, I signed up for Memphis, so it's time to get back at it. For this next marathon, I'm going to work on my 10K speed a bit (and race one on Thanksgiving, hoping to break 35 minutes), and run a bit more aggressively (now that I don't have to worry about missing out on a sub 2:40). My body is feeling pretty good -- no real issues to report.

JQ: You look so ready. Best of luck to you in NYC. Looks like the weather should be good.

NiceGuy: Good job on the mileage PRs. Those easy 10 milers are some of my most enjoyable runs. Stress free, and you can just enjoy the outdoors and being alive.

Slo-twitch: nice workouts and mileage this week. Enjoy the taper.

Coach Jeff: I usually have one or two instances where I have to take off 2 or 3 days in a row due to some random reason. And I've learned that those don't seem to hurt me. I think they might actually help, if I don't stuff my face too much.

RRR: sorry about the sciatic pain. Have you tried putting a lacrosse ball under your hamstrings while sitting on a hard chair, and then slowly doing 10 leg extensions? That's helped me before with the nerve pain.

GT: Nice track workouts. You've got some wheels.

AJ: Solid week. I know what you mean on skipping the 3 x 3. I am also going to skip one of my staple workouts in a couple of weeks, as I similarly think it will be too much for this second marathon. My goal is to maintain the endurance I have, and improve my speed just slightly.

Stone: that 3 x 3 was great. And 30K pace on tired legs sounds equivalent to 42.2K pace on fresh legs. I hope the training keeps going well and you can adjust the goal time lower.

Darkwave: good thinking on the pool running. Get to Indy healthy and rested.

OR: Nice tempo in the 17 miler. And have you done the sitting on a lacrosse ball exercise? (see above)

SI: good job with the cross training. I find it so hard to keep up.

HJ: Nice streak. Go short and easy if you need some rest.

highhoppingworm: welcome. That's a good Sunday long run, for someone shooting for sub 3 in late February. Stay healthy, and hopefully you can adjust that goal in January.

Sub-6: if you're looking to get fat, I have some good training plans for that. Most involve beer.

Statfanatic: impressive week, especially that Tuesday workout.

BHViking: big week, man. Those lower HR runs must help a lot.

Pappy: good luck with the ankle.

RGM: good luck in the 50 miler. Hope the weather doesn't suck. My planned 23 miler doesn't sound so tough anymore.

GNR1: Excellent race, and congrats on the PR!

GuyB: well, if the ankle feels alright, go for it.

TL: take care of that knee. Don't wanna miss out on the turkey trot.

Legendre: That's a lot of quality. Not questioning anything, just reading it and thinking that I'd be intimidated by that week.

pewow: glad to hear you're able to get back into it.

rucker: like cycling with a trainer, I like the consistent, controlled conditions of my treadmill. In the wintertime, I think of it as my running lab.

Will try to do more shout outs later.

Hi everyone! First post in quite a while so I am going to summarize my training with workouts only and my half marathon race for the past few weeks.

45 year old guy, 5'6", 128 lbs

PR's: 17:05 5K, 33:59 10K, 1:15:14 Half (1:11:57 downhill half), 2:42:22 Full

Upcoming Races: I have a company 5K and relay coming up this weekend. I will be running CIM in December and also I will be racing the Abbott Wanda Age Group World Championships at the London Marathon next April.

10/21-10/27: 90 miles, 10:06

Treadmill Strength 4x1.5 w/ 0.5 Rec (8:34, 8:30, 8:27, 7:53)

Track Tempo 10@5:55

Orange Theory Incline Progression 4.7@6:12 (increasing inclines from 11 mph@3% to 9 mph@15%)

Road Long 18@6:34

10/14-10/20: 80 miles, 9:15

Track Strength 6x1 w/0.25 Rec (5:42, 5:40, 5:41, 5:40, 5:38, 5:32)

Treadmill Tempo 9@5:50

Road Long 20@6:43

10/7-10/13: 77.2 miles, 8:32

Treadmill Strength 6x1 w/ 0.25 Rec (5:37, 5:33, 5:30, 5:25, 5:23, 5:19)

Orange Theory Treadmill HIIT 4.38@5:30

Treadmill Tempo 7@5:29

Long Beach Half Marathon 1:15:14 PR

Splits: 5:45, 5:44, 5:40, 5:48, 5:41, 5:39, 5:42, 5:45, 5:48, 5:42, 5:43, 5:35, 5:30, 5:01 (last 0.2)

I felt I ran a fairly evenly paced race with a fast finish but probably did not run the tangents optimally as I ran 13.24 miles according to my GPS/Stryd footpod.

9/30-10/6: 96.8 miles, 11:01

Orange Theory Treadmill HIIT 4.46@5:38

Track Yasso 10x800 w/400 Rec (2:38, 2:38, 2:37, 2:36,2:36, 2:36, 2:36, 2:35, 2:37, 2:33/1:40-1:49 Recoveries)

Orange Theory Treadmill Incline Run 3.8@6:05 (10.5 mph @2% up to 8.7 mph@11% back down to 11.4 mph@2%)

Rolling Hill Loop tempo 9@6:03

Orange Theory Treadmill HIIT 5.15@5:27

Park/Trail Long Run 20@6:50

9/23-9/29: 90 miles, 10:04

Treadmill Speed 6x1 w/ 0.25 Rec (5:23, 5:26, 5:25, 5:24, 5:21, 5:09)

Orange Theory Treadmill HIIT 5.25@5:36

Rolling Loop Tempo 6 (between 6:02-6:05)

Orange Theory Treadmill HIIT 4.93@5:38

Long Run 16@7:03

9/16-9/22: 71.8 miles, 7:54

Track Speed Ladder 400-800-1200-1600-1200-800-400-800 w/ 400 Rec (76, 2:37, 3:52, 5:09, 3:53, 2:33, 72, 2:30/1:41-1:48 recoveries)

Orange Theory Treadmill HIIT 5.05@5:34

Rolling Hill Tempo 8@5:59

Orange Theory 12 minute Distance Run 2.27@5:18

Long Run Road 19@6:31

I am going to try to catch up on this thread and see how everyone has been training and racing.

RGM - I used to do triathlons and enjoy swimming. Plus, If I don’t exercise during the day, I can’t sleep at night. That is why I swim as cross training.

Coach Jeff - Tempo pace for me has been 6:40-6:45ish, I think it should be faster for my 3:05 goal marathon, but Daniels always has me doing tempo pace after 6-8 miles of easy work so it takes time to fire into that tempo pace! Old Man Daniels, up to his tricks!

Napper - Me too. I have really come to enjoy those 10 mile trail runs, weather has been great around here.

Dark wave- I got the Vaporflys, I am hopeful! My kids are really hopeful because now they will be eating Ramen noodles for the next six months.

Some driveby comments:

JQ - Time to execute. Trust your training, and trust your race plan.

RGMW - Good luck with the 50 miler. I would be fueling with pizzas on that kind of run.

GNR - Congrats on a well-raced HM. Sub 69 starts getting you into pretty exclusive fitness.

stat - Strong, balanced week on 6 days work.

OR - I’m happy to see you flipping the switch. Couldn’t have come at a better time. Now it’s just staying healthy so that you can fine-tune your race strategy.

Coyote - Sorry to hear about the SI joint. You are experienced and savvy enough to know when to push it and when yo shut it down. Your presence will be missed during your downtime but I know you’ll be back.

pewow and Bruin - Welcome back.

Bruin, what’s the goal for CIM?

Napper - I like your approach to Memphis. Barring disastrous weather, I think you’ll destroy 35 minutes for 10km in your tuneup.

Looks like we have a handful of regulars on this thread going to CIM. Would be great to meet you guys! Post race beers for me for sure. :D

I'm on Day 2 of no running. I have a sore glute (again) . I think I might have aggravated it while doing forward lunge stretches. At least that was when I first felt it. So right now, it's ibuprofen, icing and staying off my feet. It does feel like it will be gone by the weekend but we'll see. I don't think it will set me back too much and perhaps all the extra recovery will serve me well after several consecutive big-to-me weeks (big change was major focus on EZ over vertical gain).

BHViking wrote:

Looks like we have a handful of regulars on this thread going to CIM. Would be great to meet you guys! Post race beers for me for sure. :D

I'm on Day 2 of no running. I have a sore glute (again) . I think I might have aggravated it while doing forward lunge stretches. At least that was when I first felt it. So right now, it's ibuprofen, icing and staying off my feet. It does feel like it will be gone by the weekend but we'll see. I don't think it will set me back too much and perhaps all the extra recovery will serve me well after several consecutive big-to-me weeks (big change was major focus on EZ over vertical gain).

I am in the same boat, BHViking. My right soleus was not happy with me about 3 miles into Monday’s easy run. My best guess is the amount of hill work on Sunday’s long run was an alien stimulus, making the soleus grumpy.

Did a lot of foam rolling, lacrosse ball work, and slathered Biofreeze all over my legs the last two nights. I feel a million times better already, and probably could have run just fine today, but playing it extra cautious. I always tell my athletes it’s better to be standing on the starting line of a marathon at 95% fitness than watching from the sidelines at 105% fitness but injured.

Like you, I am taking it as a blessing in disguise.

So just to confirm, who all is in for CIM?

I’ve got: BHViking, myself and Mrs. Stone, Cocoon, Bruin, and JQ as a backup for NYC. Am I missing anyone?

I just realized I left off the CIM list our fastest guy, GNR1. Apologies, sir. Anybody else that I am forgetting?

Question for the heart rate folks - my resting heart rate has been averaging around 55 lately. Before Berlin it averaged around 45 and on some nights would dip down below 40 with some regularity. Does this mean I’m not fully recovered? Note that this is based on the garmin wrist monitor so maybe the data is suspect, but it seems like a pretty stable trend.

I'd say it would suggest you are not fully recovered.