My father has a pair of the four%s. He uses them in road races. He did not drastically improve his race times with these shoes.
He's also a 60+ year old man who focuses more on triathlons, not so runner focused these days. He got them for cheap through his pal.
I agree this guy is not a troll. Given the effusive praise he heaps on the shoes, it’s much more likely he works for Nike and is just promoting them.
So I was using the YouTube app a week back and fat finger bumped some UK hobby jogger running a 5k park run named Ben. His previous best was 15:51 and boom 15:25. The course was the Victoria docks park run or something, right by the Thames and this is a faster course but when I watched he was wearing Next%s so there might be something to this, confidence perhaps.
56 year old
Prior two year my best 10km was 39:21.
Wore the 4% this spring and on certified courses ran 38:44 and 38:13.
Will be running Quad Cities and Toronto half marathons in the Next%. Very excited about the potential.
I might get them for my first 'thon. I wear Saucony Grid Cohesion and love them, but am curious about the 4%.
It might not do much, but then again, it might. A big mental difference for me as a first-timer running 3:19 vs. 3:23, for instance, to get under the sub-3:20 barrier. Not saying 3:19 is fast by any means.
fethi wrote:
More on point - what about runners using the cheaper ($99) Nike Zoomfly? How fast are they running?
Is Zoomfly just as effective at 5k and 10k? Not everyone wants to be a 'thoner.
Anyone else notice this? I bought a pair of Peg Turbo and Zoom Fly 3 and even though the Peg Turbo are lighter, I can run faster on the ZF 3. It's got more cushion for the pushing, Peg Turbo seems less forgiving like I need to be more on my forefoot/midfoot more.
Asic Tiger wrote:
Go away Nike shill.
They're preying on people's complete ignorance of footstrike mechanics. Shameful.
Sabra Cadabra wrote:
Ages - all mid 20's to mid 30's. All lifetime PRs. All wearing Vaporflys. Certified course backed up by everyone's Garmin data. I am included in the below so I am not a sore loser, just curious why more people aren't seeing this. No such improvements amongst non-VF wearers.
Male - 15:5X to 15:3X
Male - 16:4X to 15:4X
Male - 17:2X to 16:3X
Female - 17:5X to 17:2X
Female - 18:1X to 17:3X
Sabre, like the Buffalo Sabres? Are you talking about the Hall of Fame run on August 30th? There's a corresponding male and female time for each of those results, matching the age groups you listed
Of course they count! It's just progression of the material. If you let a runner from the 70s wear, for example, the Adidas Boston 9 he would also say that it's cheating because it feels so light and soft compared to his running shoes.
runnER/DR wrote:
[quote]Sabre wrote:
Lol 30-45 seconds. Comedy gold!
I have been running 17:40-17:50 for the last 6 years on the same local 5k course. This year, with the same training and fairly warm conditions I ran a 17:25 in VF4%s..... in previous years I raced in Zoom Flys, Streak 6s, and Asics DS Racers. I think I wore Vomero trainers and ran a 18 flat the first year.
This ~20s improvement came at age 43!!!
blipper wrote:
runnER/DR wrote:
[quote]Sabre wrote:
Lol 30-45 seconds. Comedy gold!
I have been running 17:40-17:50 for the last 6 years on the same local 5k course. This year, with the same training and fairly warm conditions I ran a 17:25 in VF4%s..... in previous years I raced in Zoom Flys, Streak 6s, and Asics DS Racers. I think I wore Vomero trainers and ran a 18 flat the first year.
This ~20s improvement came at age 43!!!
Was your training the same? Better? Maybe the VFs can take :15-20 seconds off but some runners have a bigger window for improvement. I know masters guys running in the 15s. They're not suddenly running in the 14s with the shoes on. I can see a 20 minute 5k runner going 19 or 19 going 18 but you can also train for that.
blipper wrote:
runnER/DR wrote:
[quote]Sabre wrote:
Lol 30-45 seconds. Comedy gold!
I have been running 17:40-17:50 for the last 6 years on the same local 5k course. This year, with the same training and fairly warm conditions I ran a 17:25 in VF4%s..... in previous years I raced in Zoom Flys, Streak 6s, and Asics DS Racers. I think I wore Vomero trainers and ran a 18 flat the first year.
This ~20s improvement came at age 43!!!
Why do you think the VF4% made you run faster than the Zoom Fly............particularly over 5k? Isn't the technology pretty much the same for a 5k?
Bad Wigins wrote:
Asic Tiger wrote:
Go away Nike shill.
They're preying on people's complete ignorance of footstrike mechanics. Shameful.
Yet you say zero about footstrike mechanics.
Umm nope wrote:
Cheaterflys offer no advantage over regular flats in a 5k. You don't need massive amounts of cushion for that distance. And you're full of crap or just trolling with claims of huge PR boosts.
Yep, I was trolling but look how many hits that I got for the site!
yes the 30-45 seconds off a 5K is exactly correct (for non-elites)
the easiest way to understand this, ignore the 4% math, is to lookup their old PR in vdot tables, then add +2 to the vdot and see what the estimated 5K would be
vdot tables are not linear so they more accurately can guesstimate results
a ~20:00 5K becomes roughly ~19:15, there's your 45 seconds
the catch is the shoes of course can't reach into your vo2max and alter it
what they do is reduce the effort required for a certain pace, they literally lower required heartrate for an effort by improving economy by a significant amount
but then it's up to the runner to be able to produce and sustain that effort, not all try or can
I've noticed runners with higher cadence get more out of the shoes than those who already run with a long stride-length and slower cadence, this may be due to the trampoline effect where only so much energy can be stored and forwarded and there are limits, more footstrikes = more energy return overall vs long delay in airtime
most of your examples match the +2 vdot theory very very closely but the 16:4x to 15:4x is quite a breakthrough
Sabra Cadabra wrote:
Male - 15:5X to 15:3X
Male - 16:4X to 15:4X
Male - 17:2X to 16:3X
Female - 17:5X to 17:2X
Female - 18:1X to 17:3X
I think Cheaterfly's impact is being felt more on the Master scene. Every Master championship has 95% of the field in these shoes, with guys that can't run well in XC, all of a sudden running very well on the roads. No names are running sub-16:00 5K's when in their earlier Master careers, 16:30 would be great.
I think we need to keep cheering for guys like Dave Angell who is not succumbing to the Cheaterfly scandal.
I ran this Buffalo race you speak of in the shoes. My 5k time in July (in Nike Frees) was 19:00, and my life-PR before Vaporflys was 18:22. I ran a 17:30 last week in VFs. It's 90% the shoes. I'm actually sad to have reached a lifelong goal of sub-18 so easily. I think we should ban VFs, but then where do we draw the line with other brands making similar shoes? You will find me in VFs until everyone else stops.
DC101GDub wrote:
Vaporflys are terrible in 5Ks. They are pretty unresponsive and only work for longer distances since they seem to keep your legs fresher longer into the race. For a short race you need something lighter and more responsive.
Lol at them not being lite and responsive
I also ran this race, minus the VFs. I've heard varying answers from people on how much they help for 5k. I have one masters friend who wore them for a 15k and he thought they were useless because for shorter distances, the "bounce" you were getting from the shoes was more in the vertical direction than in the direction you were running. However, you have to footstrike in them in a very specific way to get the best effect. It takes some getting used to in order to wear them. But being at this race it was pretty clear that it gave an edge to those who wore them. And no duh of course it did. you have basically a carbon spring in the shoe coupled with a super cushy foam which keeps your legs fresh (however I don't find the foam part of the shoe to be cheating). Nike put a lot of research and work into making a shoe that makes you a lot faster and all the data indicates that it does.
For me, I could never wear a pair of the VFs even if someone gave them to me for free. the only thing I want influencing my times are my hard work and talent. I don't want a shoe giving me a boost. There's no talent in wearing a pair of shoes. I don't want there to be any questions or asterisks behind my times. If I ran a huge PR in VFs it would feel hollow. I'd always wonder how much of a boost I got. At least with my times now no one will ever question if I had help. Seeing this thread kind of validates my concerns I'd have about wearing them. But I'm not gonna go up to people telling them they should take them off. That's up to them. I'm just gonna keep doing my own thing and worry about myself