Odd choice of a college, as a more speed based guy Engels needed more recovery and fewer miles. His hs coach convinced him to go to ole miss, but I wonder why his coach didn't tell him to go to NC State in the first place. Hell, even Sam Parsons improved dramatically especially in th 1500m after college under tinman who stresses easy runs.
This is a lot of NCAA programs not just NC state.
No it isn't. He wasn't rich like some runners. Going in-state with a hefty scholarship probably brought the price down to almost nothing.
I'll set this straight once. Then you guys can go back to making ish up.
Craig was just a 1:55, 4:15, 9:06 runner when he committed to NC State. He didn't even win the XC state title or make footlocker. He was not yet the Craig everyone speaks about in high school.
NC State recruited Craig hard all summer, when he was just a 9:20ish, 1:55, 4:15 runner. During the summer most coaches weren't calling. UNC didn't recruit him. The only coaches that were calling were small schools, NC State and colleges that knew his coach.
Craig is a loyal person and it meant a lot to him that Seaton recruited him so hard. A lot people Craig knew were going to run for state, and he wasn't ready to go far away from home. Also state offered a good scholarship (not a full) before Craig blew up. His family needed the money for him to go to school.
Craig blows up (1:49, 4:03, 8:55) and NC state never ups his scholarship.
Craig goes to State and doesn't improve year 1. Part of this is because he had to have elbow surgery after falling off a bike during XC season. That summer Craig wins USATF Jrs and PanAm Jrs. Next year XC comes and it doesn't go well. Indoor and Outdoor go awful.
Now it is Craig's 3rd year in college. He runs decent in XC. Always in the top 7. He is not chosen for Nationals. Craig drives up to NCAAs with teammates who also didn't make meet to cheer on team. While he is there he and the coach get into it. The relationship that was rocky is now over.
Craig transfers to Ole Miss and the rest is history.
Takeaways
1. NC State was a bad fit for Craig, both training an personality wise.
2. NC State is a great program.
3. Lots of people transfer and than run faster.
4. Craig has the right to feel like he wasted 2.5 years at State.
5. State has done fine without Craig.
This list could also be titled "top 5 at most raleigh 5ks OR skinny people who work at triangle running stores"
brachunok wrote:
This list could also be titled "top 5 at most raleigh 5ks OR skinny people who work at triangle running stores"
I hate that this is funny and accurate
note: if we're looking at that long list of flameouts - Geiger was still B. Mack's coach when he was running way fast and not getting hurt 2011-2015
ck3237 wrote:
Most runners improve a lot from high school to freshmen year in college
4:03y runners don't improve much. It is much more difficult to do so compared to a 1:54 / 4:15 runner. You should look up the path of Marty Liquori, probably America's 3rd or 4th best miler in history. He ran 70 to 80 mpw in HS and 15 miles on Sundays. His staple workout was 8 x 880y. When he got to Villanova, those things were not emphasized and he raced at a high level from January until August.
He did not feel that he had improved "at all" until the end of his freshman year. Now, I realize that THIS is just ONE athlete and just the third sub-4:00 HS'er ever, but it is much diiferent for the best HS runners of all time when compared to the REST of the didstnce running world.
Craig Virgin told me once that since he ran 4:05-4:10 several times (and many of those were doubles in the heat with a 2-mile), that he felt he should have run 3:55 in college. Most of us know that he did not. No fault of his own, and he improved to 4:01 (and I think that was a relay carry?) in college. The best runners of all time (and a 4:03y for Engels qualifies) don't improve like regular runners of more average ability.
ck3237 wrote:
Most runners improve a lot from high school to freshmen year in college
Couldn't be more wrong. Most? No. Some? Sure.
Lets talk about it wrote:
https://tempojournal.com/article/american-dreamer/index.htmlCraig obviously made the right choice in transferring and revitalizing his career with Vanhoy and now at NOP with Pete Julian.
He opens up about NC State situation and how they pretty much run hard everyday and if you break you break, if not keep running. This should be an eye opener for many high school runners looking to go to a school like NC state. Just think you may not even know who Craig Engels is had he stayed at NC state, now he’s one of America’s top middle distance stars! Not all P5s run their program like NC states but I would bet more than half do. Thoughts?
Well, the poor little snowflake. Good to know that blowing enough smoke up his a$$ and being careful not to be tough on him has turned him into a world beater.
"“What I really like about running is the competing, meeting people and traveling. Like meeting Antonio Brown (Oakland Raiders wide receiver) was awesome. He’s such a competitor. There’s very few people like him in the world and when you see him, ‘Wow, that’s an athlete, he looks like he’s born and bred to do this’. "
Ummm? Ok Craig.
The Overexplainer wrote:
ck3237 wrote:
Most runners improve a lot from high school to freshmen year in college
4:03y runners don't improve much. It is much more difficult to do so compared to a 1:54 / 4:15 runner. You should look up the path of Marty Liquori, probably America's 3rd or 4th best miler in history. He ran 70 to 80 mpw in HS and 15 miles on Sundays. His staple workout was 8 x 880y. When he got to Villanova, those things were not emphasized and he raced at a high level from January until August.
He did not feel that he had improved "at all" until the end of his freshman year. Now, I realize that THIS is just ONE athlete and just the third sub-4:00 HS'er ever, but it is much diiferent for the best HS runners of all time when compared to the REST of the didstnce running world.
Craig Virgin told me once that since he ran 4:05-4:10 several times (and many of those were doubles in the heat with a 2-mile), that he felt he should have run 3:55 in college. Most of us know that he did not. No fault of his own, and he improved to 4:01 (and I think that was a relay carry?) in college. The best runners of all time (and a 4:03y for Engels qualifies) don't improve like regular runners of more average ability.
Virgin did not run 1:49 in HS, either. Probably he could have found a few more seconds had he aimed his training that direction. As I recall, occasional LR poster malmo has said that Virgin was able to finish a workout with a 38 300m, so he had the speed to get to sub-4. But I'm glad he saved his best-ever race kick for world XC 1980.
Positve Contribution wrote:
"“What I really like about running is the competing, meeting people and traveling. Like meeting Antonio Brown (Oakland Raiders wide receiver) was awesome. He’s such a competitor. There’s very few people like him in the world and when you see him, ‘Wow, that’s an athlete, he looks like he’s born and bred to do this’. "
Ummm? Ok Craig.
Didn't Jimmy the Greek get fired for saying that?
Pre Officer wrote:
pay attention wrote:
Engels ran 4:03.96 in the full mile in high school. That is equivalent to 3:45 in the 1500.
NC State ruins more talent than just about every other school in the nation.
It doesn't matter if he ran 3:59 in high school. 3:45 as a frosh is a very good frosh year. Most frosh don't make that good of a transition as their high school GF is dumping them, they're eating pizza in the dorms every night at midnight, partying half as much as the average college frosh but still twice as much as the average elite athlete should, etc etc. Point is, anyone who runs 3:45 as a freshman did a lot right...and shows just how much talent Craig has. So it wasn't the right fit for him...that's fine. But it's highly likely he's not taking responsibility for some of his own actions in his time there as another poster alluded to. Fortunately Rolly Geiger doesn't give two sh!ts because he doesn't have to. If you want to go to a school where the coaches have to kow tow to the athletes, don't stay in the south.
I don't want to say this is a dumb comment because it speaks for itself. But in your comparison, if someone runs a 3:59 mile at 18 years old and 4:03 equivalent at 19 years old, that's damn awful. That's not an age to go backward or even stall. That's an age biologically built for improvement. That person did not do "a lot right."
A lot of angry, bitter, and jealous state fans in this thread...in their defense, we would see the same behavior on a football or basketball board when it comes to State.
What a truly miserable place to identify with
Someone who was actually there wrote:
I'll set this straight once. Then you guys can go back to making ish up.
Craig was just a 1:55, 4:15, 9:06 runner when he committed to NC State. He didn't even win the XC state title or make footlocker. He was not yet the Craig everyone speaks about in high school.
NC State recruited Craig hard all summer, when he was just a 9:20ish, 1:55, 4:15 runner. During the summer most coaches weren't calling. UNC didn't recruit him. The only coaches that were calling were small schools, NC State and colleges that knew his coach.
Craig is a loyal person and it meant a lot to him that Seaton recruited him so hard. A lot people Craig knew were going to run for state, and he wasn't ready to go far away from home. Also state offered a good scholarship (not a full) before Craig blew up. His family needed the money for him to go to school.
Craig blows up (1:49, 4:03, 8:55) and NC state never ups his scholarship.
Craig goes to State and doesn't improve year 1. Part of this is because he had to have elbow surgery after falling off a bike during XC season. That summer Craig wins USATF Jrs and PanAm Jrs. Next year XC comes and it doesn't go well. Indoor and Outdoor go awful.
Now it is Craig's 3rd year in college. He runs decent in XC. Always in the top 7. He is not chosen for Nationals. Craig drives up to NCAAs with teammates who also didn't make meet to cheer on team. While he is there he and the coach get into it. The relationship that was rocky is now over.
Craig transfers to Ole Miss and the rest is history.
Takeaways
1. NC State was a bad fit for Craig, both training an personality wise.
2. NC State is a great program.
3. Lots of people transfer and than run faster.
4. Craig has the right to feel like he wasted 2.5 years at State.
5. State has done fine without Craig.
For the record this is an accurate review of Craig's time at NC State. I wouldn't give NC State a pass in the takeaways. NC State routinely sucks talent in and you never hear about them again. Henes has been doing well with the women.
Takeaways
1. NC State was a bad fit for Craig
2. NC State has a good women's program.
3. Lots of people transfer and then run faster, or stay and quit
4. Craig has the right to feel like he wasted 2.5 years at State.
5. State is still getting talent and not producing
fun fact- states last acc title was in 2012. Craig was a freshman
I've never been to Raleigh and never met Engles.
I am disappointed in any athlete that throws stones. It makes the athlete look bad even if they are right. The thread is a perfect example as I still have no opinion on NC State but I will never be a fan of Engles based on his words.
This is the key passage from the article (about Ole Miss): "It’s a lawless state down there and that’s exactly what I needed. Just no rules, no regulations, it was super fun. "
So here’s what I see as factors...
Easy days too fast
Too quick of an increase in mileage
Too close to home (ex girlfriend)
Too much discipline for his personality
No longer a big fish in a small pond
Some of these factors are on him, some on NC State, and some are on nobody. Let’s try to realize that nearly all contentious situations are two sided. So let’s stop bashing each other because running is a dying competitive sport and we need to more positivity. Actually are society needs more positivity in general.
post toasties wrote:
Positve Contribution wrote:
"“What I really like about running is the competing, meeting people and traveling. Like meeting Antonio Brown (Oakland Raiders wide receiver) was awesome. He’s such a competitor. There’s very few people like him in the world and when you see him, ‘Wow, that’s an athlete, he looks like he’s born and bred to do this’. "
Ummm? Ok Craig.
Didn't Jimmy the Greek get fired for saying that?
Lol didn't even think of that but true. Was more just referring to AB being a straight up nut job.