Was Yiannis Kouros the best ultra runner because he did everything against the grain?

I have had the pleasure of running beside and talking with this extraordinay man.

Yiannis was not unusual in physique. 5'7'' 140 to 145 lb. Well muscled and very lean.

Certainly more solid than most African elite marathoners but not unusual for a 2.20ish guy.

He showed good talent as a youngster. 4.09 and 9.03 for 1500 and 3000 at 16 with limited coaching. His 2.24 marathon probably doesn't reflect his true ability. He was running ultras from quite a young age.

Not sure he was a vegetarian as I am sure I remember him eating chicken during a race. Perhaps he made an exception during races. He ate quite a wide variety of foods during 24 hr races and during his famous intercity races. Traditional sweets lots of fruit, nuts etc.

He had only 4 to 5 hours sleep during the 1985 S to M race, 960kms covered in 5 days and 5 hrs.

Back in those days he said he was training about 150 kms per week.

Like most things this record probably isn't pure. How prolly rode half the way.

Must be the feta wrote:

So what's the chance that he was actually clean? His record is so inordinately above and beyond any other performance at that distance. It seems ridiculously unlikely that his physiology is so far superior to every other athlete to have tested themselves at the 24 hour run that the distance between his record and #2 on the list would be so wide.

I think it's rather certain that he's clean. Look at the video: this is a very ordinary person who came 'out of nowhere', there is no way he'd have access to anything dodgy.

Though ordinary in one sense, it is also completely obvious that he has a champion mentality. He is eloquent in the video, and it is clear that he was deeply immersed in his running in the way that a true champion can be, clearly different from the masses.

I know you are just being a d#ck for the sake of it but I have personally seen him run 297 kms in 24 hrs on the track.

a champion wrote:

I think it's rather certain that he's clean. Look at the video: this is a very ordinary person who came 'out of nowhere', there is no way he'd have access to anything dodgy.

Though ordinary in one sense, it is also completely obvious that he has a champion mentality. He is eloquent in the video, and it is clear that he was deeply immersed in his running in the way that a true champion can be, clearly different from the masses.

To emphasise further, the Norwegian runner Therese Falk ran over 250km in a 24 hours race this year. I am as certain as can be that Therese is clean, I don't think she'd even know what to put in herself to cheat, never mind be able to get hold of it. Therese is nowhere near a 2:20 marathoner; it is perfectly conceivable that a clean 2:20 marathoner with a champion mentality could break 300km.

Professional athletes in training camps are one thing; it is easy to attract dodgy types to these, especially in countries where athletics brings in considerable sums of money compared to the average income; and dodgy practices can be passed on/become the norm. Lone ranger ultramarathoners are a completely different kettle of fish

a champion wrote:

Must be the feta wrote:

So what's the chance that he was actually clean? His record is so inordinately above and beyond any other performance at that distance. It seems ridiculously unlikely that his physiology is so far superior to every other athlete to have tested themselves at the 24 hour run that the distance between his record and #2 on the list would be so wide.

I think it's rather certain that he's clean. Look at the video: this is a very ordinary person who came 'out of nowhere', there is no way he'd have access to anything dodgy.

Though ordinary in one sense, it is also completely obvious that he has a champion mentality. He is eloquent in the video, and it is clear that he was deeply immersed in his running in the way that a true champion can be, clearly different from the masses.

Sure, he's clean just because he looks good and has a champion mentality. Lance must love your sort of thinking. Some people never learn. You'd be a a perfect anti-doping official.

masterofdisaster wrote:

Sure, he's clean just because he looks good and has a champion mentality. Lance must love your sort of thinking. Some people never learn. You'd be a a perfect anti-doping official.

There is no comparison between the two, neither in terms of context nor in terms of character.

'mopac wrote:

He had only 4 to 5 hours sleep during the 1985 S to M race, 960kms covered in 5 days and 5 hrs.

Back in those days he said he was training about 150 kms per week.

This record in terms of human outlier performance is the one that stands out to me. Basically 120 miles A DAY for five days....no words.

In addition to what have already been mentioned he needs strenght to keep his posture as long as he does. I also believe he is getting energy from his shoulders when running. That requires muscles. Muscles are reducing endurance, but not as much with people who are actn3 xx. Almost none africans are actn3xx but it is more normal in asian coutries like Japan. You can see some runners over there beating kenyans while being much broader.

If he was dirty, what was he doing that didn't touch his marathon speed? Or put another way, if his secret was doping, well plenty of people can dope, and they aren't approaching his records.

Seems to me more likely that he was just a pretty talented runner who took this kind of event seriously enough to excel at it. Not many 2:20-ish guys do, because trails are more lucrative (and more fun).

I would put Yiannis in my top-10 of famous runners who I would make a large bet are clean. And one of the very few since the '70s.

A bit of insight into why Yiannis was so successful might come from the first big intercity race between Sydney and Melb. back in 83. A race he didn't run.

There was rivalry here bw George Perdon and Tony Rafferty. The 2 of them would run FKTs between Aussie cities.

A race was organised with $ on the line. Lots of the big name ultra runners were going to be there. You had to qualify through a 24 hr race. One of the qualifiers was Cliff Young a 61 year old farmer from near Colac. Cliff was known in running circles mainly because he had run just over 3 hours in the marathon in long trousers and a dress shirt.

All the guns had strategic plans of running and resting. Cliff on the other hand just ran it as a race. He had a shuffling energy efficient gait probably developed from herding sheep for hour after hour as a young bloke.

When the big names stopped for their planned rests old Cliffy just shuffled on, and on, and on, and on.

He stopped only when he could go no further and only briefly. Then off he shuffled again. He just ran away from them all. Not through ability but just through stubborn determination to keep on moving. He was tough as teak. He talked of times on the family farm where he would spend all day herding the sheep to safety in wild weather. So plodding along the Hume Highway day after day was no big deal in his mind. He used no science, Cliffy was a very simple guy, not perhaps the sharpest tool in the shed.

So along comes this young Greek guy with fairly high end running talent but with that same mental and physical toughness as Cliffy. Better organised, smarter in preperation.

How many very talented guys would even think about the possibility of running 5 or 6 days almost continuously.

I was running a 24 hour relay at Coburg's Harold Stevens track years ago. Yiannis was determined to break the 300 km barrier that day/night. In the middle of the night it absolutely piffed down. We were all sooking about racing this relay on the flooded track in the pouring rain. Yiannis just kept ploughing on relentlessly. He just missed the 300 kms.

Watching him that night was something else.

Ho Hum wrote:

put another way, if his secret was doping, well plenty of people can dope, and they aren't approaching his records.

What's testing like now compared to his time?

IF they screen for stimulants now but didn't then, well... that's how you'd dope for an ultra. So that's the facts to go fact check

Real G’s move in silence like Yiannis.

Yiannis had a very long career of racing events of 24 hours to 6 days. I would imagine regular heavy use of stimulants would 've led to some significant health issues. Did he dope? No idea but I have never seen anyone comparable to him re ability to race 24 hours plus. The modern day high profile high paid ultra athletes are still coming to terms with his performances.

This is sort of the point. There are more and more top level athletes that are moving up in distance. And no one has come even remotely close.

Anyone know the WR progression in the 24 hour run prior to his 1997 record?

Must be the feta wrote:

Anyone know the WR progression in the 24 hour run prior to his 1997 record?

Kouros had the record since 1984. 284.853 km at that time.

David Dowdle had the record since 1982 with 274.480 km. Only 14 people surpassed that since then. Kouros has 15 results over Dowdle's mark alone.

Must be the feta wrote:

This is sort of the point. There are more and more top level athletes that are moving up in distance. And no one has come even remotely close.

I don't really see more and more top level athletes moving to ultrarunning. Usually it's just 2nd tier marathon runners who move up. The ones who are top, stay in Marathon racing until they are burned out.

Therese Falk has recently improved her 24-hour record to 261.17 km, making her the second-fastest female ever at this distance, with her time being third of all time.

Her race improved on the previous men’s national record, held by Bjørn Tore Kronen Taranger, by 3.56 km. (That record was bested in the same race Therese ran)

Aldo, like you, I have absolutely no doubt she’s clean. She just has a very unique talent for ultra-endurance events.

I just hope she can get a chance at trying the WR on a course that is less crowded than the indoor Bislett track. I think she has the capacity to do 275 in a race made for her on a better and less crowded course so she doesn’t need to run half of her laps in lane 2/3