What are the best ultramarathon records? (Sponsored by HOKA)

reed wrote:

you have no proof that the W100k record was aided by a tailwind. Plus, the course is record eligible according to the IAAF rules. do you think that a tailwind saved her 25+ minutes over a 62 mile race?

A lot has been written on the circumstances of Tomoe's questionable performance, including by longtime race statisticians Andy Milroy and Ken Young.

1. Looking up weather history, she had a mostly tailwind/crosswind around 15-20 mph for more than 70% of the race. Being near a large body of water, the aid of the wind could have been even greater. The Lake Saroma race has a history of athletes outperforming their personal best by large margins, further drawing questions on whether they truly ran faster or were aided by a tailwind.

2. Ken Young doesn't even recognize Tomoe's record because of the separation being more than 30% and the possibility of a significant aid from a tailwind. The ARRS recognizes the 7:00:27 performance by Norimi Sakurai as the World Record.

"If one were to set up such a course, the ideal location would be near a large body of water. In that way, one could take advantage of the sea breeze which is quite reliable in its direction."

3. Her record was only retroactively ratified due to political pressure from the Japanese IAAF representative to change the separation limit from 30% to 50%. The Lake Saroma course has a start-finish separation of 47%. Again, Ken Young was vehemently against it and went into great detail why in the link above.

"...Apparently one member of the committee (council) that made this decision insisted that courses with up to a 50% separation between the start and finish be allowed. It turns out that two of the performances on the list proposed for acceptance as "world records" were set in this person's country by nationals of his country. If a 30% rule were adopted, neither of these marks would have qualified. This serves to demonstrate that the basis for the IAAF road record criteria is political rather than technical. Score this as a big step backwards...."

4. Andy Milroy wrote an article around the circumstances at the time and the political-fueled changes by the IAAF so that Tomoe's record could be ratified. Because it wasn't an international level competition, other questions remain on whether the course was validated and if there was drug testing (see point #5).

"...Now the IAAF has thrown out this scientifically-determined criterion at the insistence of the Japanese President of AIMS (Association of International Marathons). The Japanese 100km mark was set by Tomoe Abe on a course with at least a 40% separation between start and finish. There is considerable evidence that this mark was wind-aided since more than 70 km of the race was run with a tail-wind.

It should be noted that the criteria used by the IAAF in recognising the Japanese performance are in direct conflict with those in the Ultra Marathon Race Handbook, the Ultrarunning rule book that the IAAF itself recommends in its own Distance Running Manual. Ann Trason's mark meets all the criteria listed in the Handbook..."

5. Drug testing wasn't a requirement for World Records until January 1st, 2003 (her record was set June 25th 2000). Any records before this period not set at an international competition, especially extreme outliers like Tomoe's performance, draw a lot of questions on how legitimate they were. Her record was set during the EPO era and before there was EPO testing.

*Correction: 15-20 km per hr tailwind.

The Land of Rising Sun wrote:

I don't know about the wind, but the temperature reached 29C on that day (according to the official website). Only 64.4% finished the race that year, the lowest in the table. So the conditions must have been tough, whether there was tail wind or not.

Not true. Weather history for June 25th 2000 shows a low of 51F and a high of 62F. Throw in a coastal tailwind for over 70% of the race, and these are near perfect conditions.

1. If Saroma is such an easy course, why no other woman has ever run faster than 7:11 there? For example, Norimi Sakurai, who has run 7:00 in Winschoten, won Saroma three times. Her best time there was 7:16.

2. If the 2000 race was run under the "ideal" condition, why only ONE male runner finished ahead of Abe? (He was the defending champion and his time was five minutes slower than 1999.)

3. And if it was under ideal conditions, why only 64% of runners finished the race?

http://statistik.d-u-v.org/getintbestlist.php?year=all&dist=100km&gender=W&cat=all&nat=all&label=&hili=none&tt=netto&Submit.x=10&Submit.y=9

By the way, Monbetsu is to the Northeast of the start point of Saroma race. Why didn't you actually choose a place closer to the actual course?

I think the biggest problem with Abe's record is that a world class marathon runner (World Championship bronze medalist with 2:26 PB) smashed the record with one-off attempt. She ran 2:28 five months before the 100km WR, and 2:27 nine months after. (She even won a marathon in 2:35 two months after her 100km.) That does not bode well with ultra enthusiasts.

This is the first time I saw the map of the Lake Saroma 100k course. It doesn't really look like that the course is that great for wind assistance. I still think it's BS to change the rules in retrospect.

But I think Tomoe Abe was just a lot better of a Marathon runner than anybody else. That's why her time is almost 30 minutes faster. If there was wind assistance it was maybe good for 5 minutes if any at all but not 27.

First off, it is easy. The unusually fast outlier times there vs other record quality courses (Winschoten) speaks for itself. Maybe the talent and weather haven't aligned for other Japanese women to run fast, or they're saving themselves for the World Championship later in the year? Competition and World team selection is usually more fierce for the men too. Looking at years worth of data athletes have run significant personal bests at Lake Saroma, while running much slower at other international, record quality courses. Take for example the following performances from last year when the new men's World Record was set:

Nao Kazami 6:09:14 (6:33:52 previous best) - 24:38 improvement

Koji Hayasaka 6:20:49 (6:45:28 previous best) - 24:39 improvement

Takehiko Gyoba 6:22:55 (no previous 100 km known - 2:19:12 Marathon)

Hideaki Yamauchi 6:23:49 (6:18:22 previous best)

Yoshiki Kawauchi 6:28:35 (6:42:06 previous best) 13:31 improvement

Her performance is such an extreme outlier that it's hard to not question it's legitimacy, esp since it was before 2003 when it became required to have drug testing for World Records. As stated from Ken Young,

"Performances that lie six standard deviations out on the tail of the distribution, i.e., much faster than any other peformances at that distance (and for that sex) will tend to remain on such lists and cast doubt on the overall veracity of the process. In addition, drug-aided performances may still go undetected despite this criterion, and not be uncovered until the performances have been "institutionalized", i.e., not to be removed. If an anti-doping requirement is to be effected, then it should apply to performances prior to 01 Jan 2003. Otherwise, there is a double standard. Score this as a step backwards."

That sounds like a normal statistic for any ultra?

Because when you type in Yubetsu, Monbetsu District is the nearest location that pops up.

As it should be questioned? There are many other sub 2:30 marathoners who have run 100k (including the Nurgalieva twins) and never gotten close to sub 7 hours. She wasn't subject to required drug testing for her performance. Had she competed at the World Championship later that year in Winschoten, she would have both been drug tested and also been able to validate whether her Lake Saroma performance was legitimate. Instead we are left with a one-off, extreme outlier that was retroactively recognized three years later due to political influence.

Ultramarkus wrote:

This is the first time I saw the map of the Lake Saroma 100k course. It doesn't really look like that the course is that great for wind assistance. I still think it's BS to change the rules in retrospect.

Your opinion is moot. As mentioned, Ken Young and Andy Milroy wrote ad nauseam about the coastal wind assistance at Lake Saroma for over 70% of the race.

But I think Tomoe Abe was just a lot better of a Marathon runner than anybody else. That's why her time is almost 30 minutes faster. If there was wind assistance it was maybe good for 5 minutes if any at all but not 27.

Your opinion doesn't matter. Other sub 2:30 marathoners have run 100k, including the experienced Nurgalieva twins, and not gotten close to breaking 7 hours. Most men's and women's World Records are 10-12% difference. There is a 6.1% difference for the 100k records. Any other athletics World Records that are closer than 10% were either 1) likely doped and/or 2) had a wind reading error (FloJo). Throwing out the performances from Lake Saroma, as the ARRS did, and only recognizing record quality performances at Winschoten, the difference between 6:16 and 7:00 is 10.4%, which aligns to the 10-12% difference.

Dean Karnazes ran 350 miles without stopping at an astounding 14:00/mile pace!

I hadn't known about the political reasons that caused a change in the separation. So thanks, whoever said that.

However, I still think the record should stand. I'd expect a 2:26 marathoner to be able to run about 6:30s for 100k, which would be about a 6:40-6:45 100k. If somebody gets a couple free minutes from a tailwind, and maybe the conditions hadn't been great for her 2:26, and maybe she's more slow twitch than normal...and boom, 6:33. it's not that crazy, we just don't see many women capable of a sub-2:30 marathon in a 100k. even Camille Herron who holds the 100mi records has only run 2:37ish. Imagine if she was 10 minutes faster in the marathon...

Whether she was on EPO or not, that's probably not for any of us to say. Seems unfair to say she was dirty just because it was 2000.

Exactly she was a 2:26 marathoner.

If a guy ran 2:26 and then ran 6:30s for a 100km it would also be really, really good...but not be impossible (i think women also “convert better” to longer distances).

As far as PEDs go in ultras...yeah the sport is dirty and I have many doubts. Again testing is a joke! But one of the last countries I’d imagine to have a lot of athletes who dope and have cheaters is Japan. It is a culture of honor.

This thread was interesting til it diverted into some argument nobody cares about. What about rescuing it?

reed wrote:

I hadn't known about the political reasons that caused a change in the separation. So thanks, whoever said that.

However, I still think the record should stand. I'd expect a 2:26 marathoner to be able to run about 6:30s for 100k, which would be about a 6:40-6:45 100k. If somebody gets a couple free minutes from a tailwind, and maybe the conditions hadn't been great for her 2:26, and maybe she's more slow twitch than normal...and boom, 6:33. it's not that crazy, we just don't see many women capable of a sub-2:30 marathon in a 100k. even Camille Herron who holds the 100mi records has only run 2:37ish. Imagine if she was 10 minutes faster in the marathon...

Whether she was on EPO or not, that's probably not for any of us to say. Seems unfair to say she was dirty just because it was 2000.

I take statistician Ken Young's stance that this performance should be thrown out. No statistician is going to accept it. It's an extreme outlier and doesn't fit with the 10-12% differential seen across other events and sports. If you take the average time differential between those who have run the Comrades downhill course and 100k (+1:00:23 for women) and add this to Frith van der Merwe's 5:54 course record (she was a 2:27 marathoner), you get 6:54 100k. That's 21 minutes slower than Tomoe, despite similar personal bests.

You throw out a record because "No statistician is going to accept it.!" Thats bs. Now in looking at "record outliers" I would say it would be somewhat suspicious initially (I think doping and/or aided courses initially when that kind of thing happens).. But again, how many times is 100km really "time-trialed" in good conditions on a flat course...especially by top level female marathoners? World champs is usually run in slow conditions (tactically) on warmer/hiller courses . So not really many data points to compared to , huh? At least Comrades has a fairly consistent course (it has changed slightly even on up/down years) and more data points...but of course it is not 100km and it is quite hilly. Now I might admit that Lake Sarnoma might be aided (the distance between the start and finish is quite far) that if there was a tailwind vector that day (on a point to point course) then yes, obviously that is going to make for a super fast time. and would be a significant factor...I don't know the details on that...and whether that should automatically dismiss the record. This women was a 2:26 marathoner.. Kouros was only a 2:23 marathoner. Kouros is considered to have some of the greatest records of all time. Is it really too far fetched to think that a person who is only 3 minutes slower over the marathon might have actually run a legit 6:33 for 100km? I don't think so.

Absolutely throw it out. At 6.1% differential to the men's record, it's the statistically strongest Athletics World Record by a large margin. It's stronger than FloJo, Marita, Jarmila, Paula, Wang, and Tirunesh. It's bs not to question it. Was her performance validated, meaning did she run the course as measured? For all we know she cut off one of the out-and-back sections. Anyone have her splits? Her performance goes against all the other legitimate women and ultra performances, including Frith van der Merwe at Comrades. There are many more sub 2:30 marathon women who never broke 7 hours or ran the equivalent at Comrades.

I always wondered about Abe, that’s interesting.

Definitely Kouros 24 hour record. But his 48Hr and 6 Day Records are equally untouchable.

Other impressive records:

Frith van der Merwe’s 3:08 50K in 1989. Janice Klecker ran 3:13 for 50k and that’s a long standing American Record. Both are pretty stout for woman’s records.

Camille Herron’s 24 hour is very impressive, but no one has mentioned her 100 mile record of 12:42? She beat the previous world record by over an hour.

RDP wrote:

Camille Herron’s 24 hour is very impressive, but no one has mentioned her 100 mile record of 12:42? She beat the previous world record by over an hour.

Camille improved a soft world best over 100 miles. That is not a world record. 100 miles is a almost never contested distance on roads. For her this was the easiest fruit to pick from a low hanging branch. Her 24 hour WR is one a much more contested official distance.

Letsrun, thanks for hosting this discussion of ultras. I have participated in a number of ultras, and I confess to wasting too much time reading about record-setting performances, but really I think the discussion misses the mark about what ultras are really about, at least to me. I run because its fun and I enjoy it, and I participate in ultras because I consider them to be an adventure. I would wager most ultra runners don't care that much about records, because they are more interested in having a good time, and they realize that most of these events are not really competitive events. Yes, they are races, and yes, there are competitions, but for almost everyone that is not the first or second or even the third most important thing. Even the famous ultra runners like Jim Walmsley and Sage Canaday can't be making all that much money, and outstanding runners like Mike Wardian still work full time jobs.

Anyways, I would love for you to include some discussion about who are the best race directors and who are the people who have done the most to promote ultra running. For example, Gary Cantrell, and his ridiculous races have gotten a lot of people interested in ultras, and events like the Barkley marathon and Big's Backyard Ultra seem pretty incredible, although there are not any course records that could really be considered the "best."

1) Best course records (Comrades, Western States, UTMB, etc).

The fastest known time on the Appalachian Trail. The reason this became the best course record is really thanks to the great David Horton who first ran the trail in 1991 in 52 days, and the current record by Karel Sabbe stands at an outstanding 41d 7h 39m. Scott Jurek and Karl Meltzer have both previously held the record before.

https://fastestknowntime.com/route/appalachian-trail

It is sad that running doesn't have something similar to the Tour De France , or in my mind, the much better Race Across America, or even better Trans Am Bike Race. Although Pete Kostelnick has shown that you can put in a good showing running across the country, and his 42 days from San Francisco to New York should be in contention for the best record.

2) Best records at runs less than 24 hours hours (50 miles, 100k, 100 miles, Grand Canyon Rim to Rim, etc).

I think Jim Walmsley's R2R2R on the Grand Canyon is the best short course record as it is an outstanding time in what may be the most stunningly beautiful place in the world.

3) Best 24 hour and longer races (24 hours, 48 hours, 6 days, also includes runs across US, Britain, Sri Chinmoy 3100, etc).

I think the 6 day records are really the best, especially because of the long history. I love the fact that back in the 1870s, at least according to Wikipedia, a rich dude was funding a series of races to determine the "Long distance Champion of The World". 500 miles in 6 days was incredible, and Yiannis Kouros and his current standard of over 1000 km is just mind-blogging.