y nobody give u sht? wrote:
I don't think easy runs have much to do with success in discus.
Definitely not a top an optimal predictor.
Agreed, shot put and hammer as well. Not sure about the javelin.
y nobody give u sht? wrote:
I don't think easy runs have much to do with success in discus.
Definitely not a top an optimal predictor.
Agreed, shot put and hammer as well. Not sure about the javelin.
There's no magic sauce for general/out of season training besides consistency. The best way to stay consistent is to do as this study suggests: mileage, tempo runs, keep in touch with speed/VO2max with short reps on plenty of recovery. Where the rubber meets the road is when a key event is near. It's about knowing the athlete, getting them to believe in what they're doing, confidence, timing of race-specific training, and freshness. That's where a great coach will make their mark.
Interesting that they refer to "DP training" which I associate with Daniels...Stormy, that is.
Also, since this is Letsrun there should be some gratuitous apostrophes, something like, "Discus-Easy run's, tempo's and short interval's" but not sure how to insert the apostrophe in the word "Discus": Help me out here.
Good article. I have had success training myself and my team this way. I don’t think it necessarily discredits CV, as the very low end of CV HR is still in this study’s effective category. At the same time, any higher than that and you are in the ineffective category. Also, V02 max intervals in general seem to be thrown out. That is if we define these intervals in how they are typically done with being 3-5 min in length at that specific intensity.
A lot of the new wave training programs operate this way. Melbourne track club does this. Tinman does this. Canova does this (over-distance and under-distance support prior to specific work). Also the Ingebrigstens obviously do this too.
I know a lot of people aren’t going to like this study and others that will surely follow. They will get upset that their preconceived notions of training are being challenged at all because it worked in the good ole days or might have worked for them. They might even back pedal and claim they were doing this all along to retain some sort of security. Well....people didn’t like Lydiard at first. Then people didn’t like Daniels at first. Seems like people won’t like this for awhile either. I personally love it. Anything to advance the sport, even if it is fractional in nature, should be applauded.
Former Sub 14:00 wrote:
Good article. I have had success training myself and my team this way. I don’t think it necessarily discredits CV, as the very low end of CV HR is still in this study’s effective category. At the same time, any higher than that and you are in the ineffective category. Also, V02 max intervals in general seem to be thrown out. That is if we define these intervals in how they are typically done with being 3-5 min in length at that specific intensity.
A lot of the new wave training programs operate this way. Melbourne track club does this. Tinman does this. Canova does this (over-distance and under-distance support prior to specific work). Also the Ingebrigstens obviously do this too.
I know a lot of people aren’t going to like this study and others that will surely follow. They will get upset that their preconceived notions of training are being challenged at all because it worked in the good ole days or might have worked for them. They might even back pedal and claim they were doing this all along to retain some sort of security. Well....people didn’t like Lydiard at first. Then people didn’t like Daniels at first. Seems like people won’t like this for awhile either. I personally love it. Anything to advance the sport, even if it is fractional in nature, should be applauded.
The real thing is that this kind of training is nothing new! Has been practiced with great success before by the many great Portuguese runners during "The Portuguese wonder" era. The great Portuguese coach Monitz Pereira got free hands by the government and developed a great training system out from then the very best known training systems in history. The system mainly was built on short 5 k paced intervals ( 10 x 400, 12 x 400 , 15 x 400 , 20 x 400m and also 200m reps ) once per week and also lactate threshold reps of 1000-3000m .
-The Wizard -
Why would you read a distance running book if you were looking for success in the Discus?
With all this new insightful information...should I ditch my prescribed 6x800m workout for a 12x400? A 10x200? A long run with a fast finish? Two easy runs?
Do you see what it is I am saying.
Im sooooo confused! wrote:
With all this new insightful information...should I ditch my prescribed 6x800m workout for a 12x400? A 10x200? A long run with a fast finish? Two easy runs?
Do you see what it is I am saying.
Look up the training of David Moorcroft and Malmo, good place to start.
How important is mileage increase for ppl trying to peak a 3k run ? compared to adding more interval sessions?
atm i do 2x 6km jogs a week, 1x 12x400 - 1x 6x800 and 1 tempo run of 4k. i dont do any "long" runs
Micker wrote:
How important is mileage increase for ppl trying to peak a 3k run ? compared to adding more interval sessions?
atm i do 2x 6km jogs a week, 1x 12x400 - 1x 6x800 and 1 tempo run of 4k. i dont do any "long" runs
Get down to running twice a day, as many days as possible. Even if it is just adding another 3k jog in the morning. 3000 meters is mostly aerobic, so you should do at least one run per day. On your 6k jogs, if you feel good turn it into a "run to the barn". That is go out easy and pick up the pace coming back. Also, add some strides/short hill sprints. After you complete a run throw in a few strides or hill sprints every two-three days. Don't kill yourself with these, 4-6 is plenty. And right now, don't even worry about long runs.
Worth noting that the study was for runners at 5000m through the marathon. If you are training for the 800m or 1500m, the ideal mix of training elements might be different.. So maybe Seb Coe had it right for his events.
Is it allowed to run with the discus in hand?
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
there have been great advances by coaches like Tinman or even here on the forums with Canova and Hadd/Cabral.
You seem to be out of date - there is an "odd one out" among the coaches in your list.
Clarity wrote:
They defined tempo runs are being
between 45 and 70 minutes in duration or running intervals from 1,000 to 5,000 m and from 82 to 92% of HRmax
It's worth noting that it seems like cruise intervals were included in the tempo running category.
Long intervals, which the study found to be the least relevant to improvement, were defined as being
between 1,000 and 2,000 m long and from 92 to 95% of HRmax
The collected data and the study are amazing but the definition of a tempo run and long interval above is a problem as they both include the distance 1000-2000m and the only difference is HR max which may be more difficult to distinguish precisely. For example running intervals between 1000 and 2000m is a major part of Kipchoge ‘s training and it is generally at or above his marathon pace. Although he makes sure not to be exhausted, 92% seems more likely. This definition issue may result in long intervals not being statistically significant in the regression.
+1 wrote:
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=309865
that was one of the best threads here. considering that relatively long hard-sided progression runs with a strong finish cover practically all areas of training.
We will not know for sure, but the way I see it, longer intervals done by Kipchoge are more of broken threshold/tempo work and would still fall under that category. Long intervals would be more like him doing 2Ks at 10K effort, which for athlete who can run sub27 min 10K is little bit farther away from threshold and much closer to vo2max effort then for an amateur running high 30's.
For me, some of the key take aways are that volume is one of the defining factors for elite runners performance and this includes both total volume and specific work volume. Meaning that it seems beneficial (especially when athlete has reached his or her VO2max potential) to do workouts that include a large volume of moderate intensity, which is something that we can see in Kipchoge's or Ingebrigtsen's or Canova's training. I think especially for marathoners one should be looking to include higher volume workouts into his/her schedule.
OldFish. wrote:
We will not know for sure, but the way I see it, longer intervals done by Kipchoge are more of broken threshold/tempo work and would still fall under that category. Long intervals would be more like him doing 2Ks at 10K effort, which for athlete who can run sub27 min 10K is little bit farther away from threshold and much closer to vo2max effort then for an amateur running high 30's.
For me, some of the key take aways are that volume is one of the defining factors for elite runners performance and this includes both total volume and specific work volume. Meaning that it seems beneficial (especially when athlete has reached his or her VO2max potential) to do workouts that include a large volume of moderate intensity, which is something that we can see in Kipchoge's or Ingebrigtsen's or Canova's training. I think especially for marathoners one should be looking to include higher volume workouts into his/her schedule.
If you study Kipchoges intervals most of them are mainly at half marathon pace and not 10 k pace.But you are right his long intervals are more like broken threshold tempo/ half marathon pace. This was the same kind of training done by a couple of other 2:02-2:03 marathoners like Mosop, Kimetto and Kipsang .The difference with Kipsang is that he usually rest up one day in the week and don`t keep the same total high volume as Kipchoge. It seems like this with long intervals at LT-pace is the best way to train for half/ marathon when included a specific long run ( not every week) . I prefer the Kipsang way with more moderate total volume.
One more interesting thing with Kipsang is that he has no really background as a very good track runner. His best 10 k at road is 27:44 compared to Kipchoge`s track times 5 k at 12:46 and 10 k at 26 : 49. So, according to this it`s quite good to have reached 2:03:13 .
IwishIwasDaveWottle wrote:
Easy runs, tempos, and short intervals will not help you too much in the Discus
Another one!
pookipie wrote:
Is it allowed to run with the discus in hand?
New on Letsrun?