Wired's Nicholas Thompson on Boston: "It’s a terrible course if you want a personal best." Agree or Disagree?

LetsRun.com · 2019-04-13T10:17:27-04:00

Do you agree or disagree? In our minds, it all depends on the weather, mainly the wind. https://www.wired.com/story/how-the-boston-marathon-messes-with-runners-to-slow-them-down/

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7 years ago 04/16/2019 12:15pm EDT

re: AP5000

AP5000 wrote:
I just can't for the life of me figure out how a 50 foot rise (common, it's not a hill) or 100 foot decent is quad thrashing. The people must not run any hills at all as that's a joke to call those hills. The flatest non track run I do where I live is 400 feet of gain in about 6 to 7 miles. That's my easiest / recovery run of the week. Tempo runs and long intervals are all done on a profile with more gain/loss than that...long runs even more and these are not runs I consider true "hilly" runs. None of this hill talk makes any sense to me.

* * * BREAKING NEWS ***

People that routinely train on hills find hills easier to run.

7 years ago 04/18/2019 12:13am EDT

re: malmo

malmo wrote:
kmaclam wrote:
Amen!
Amen, NOT!
Having run the course from Natick to Cleveland Circle at least 100 times I think I'm qualified to opine.
Boston's unique topography makes it a NET downhill race on paper, however, it's still certainly not as fast as a flat course. Not even close. Any "aiding" at Boston depends on the capricious nature of the westerly winds. Anytime you get a wind anywhere from the NW to SSW it's game on! Even with the benefit of a tailwind, the course is such that your legs take an awful beating.
Notice that during the first mile (a) there is a drop of 130 ft. At the end of four miles (b), a net drop of 310 ft. Anyone who's ever run a marathon knows that the first four miles means nothing and any gains during those first four miles are going to be negligible -- especially in world-class fields. From four to 21 miles (b-d) there is an elevation RISE of 50 ft., leading to a quad-destroying drop of 220 ft. over the last five miles (e-f). I cannot name one runner who has ever said that they were "aided" during those last five miles of Boston, can you? To the contrary, the race history is riddled with dozens of runners making it through 21 miles ahead of world-record pace -- facing only downhill ahead -- and then being cruelly humbled by the final descent.
In a nutshell: Minus 310 ft. over four miles. Verdict: small gain. Plus 50 ft. over the next 17 miles. Verdict: a loss. Minus 220 ft over the last 5 miles. Verdict: a big loss.
I cannot stress it enough the two most significant features of Boston's course are the downhills at (c) Newton Lower Falls (-100ft. at 15.5 miles) and (e) St. Ignatious Church (-80 ft. at 21 miles after Heartbreak). That -80 ft. drop at St. Ignatious is more like -100 ft because there is a little rise after it to the 22 mile checkpoint. Those downhills kill the superstars and plodders alike.
Here are the elevations above sea level of the mile marks on the Boston Marathon course.
Mileage City/Town Elevation ft. Netchange
Start Hopkinton 490 N/A
1.0 Hopkinton 360 -130 (a)
2.0 Ashland 320 -40
3.0 Ashland 265 -55
4.0 Ashland 180 -85 (b)
5.0 Framingham 205 +25
6.0 Framingham 180 -25
7.0 Framingham 155 -25
8.0 Natick 180 +25
9.0 Natick 150 -30
10.0 Natick 170 +20
11.0 Natick 180 +10
12.0 Wellesley 165 -15
13.0 Wellesley 145 -20
14.0 Wellesley 130 -15
15.0 Wellesley 160 +30
16.0 Newton/LowerFalls 60 -100 (c)
17.0 Newton 115 +55
18.0 West Newton 145 +30
19.0 Newton 130 -15
20.0 Newton 150 +20
21.0 ChestnutHill 230 +80 (d)
22.0 Boston/Brighton 150 -80 (e)
23.0 Brookline 95 -55
24.0 Brookline 60 -35
25.0 Boston/Back Bay 15 -45
26.0 Boston/Back Bay 10 -5
26.2 Finish 10 0 (f)

perfect info. from a qualified guy. with experience.

there should be a separate forum for people that have some idea what so ever.

7 years ago 04/18/2019 12:17am EDT

re: longjack

further.

there should be one forum for basement dwellers and then another for like, people with some clue

maybe have run sub 15 min 5k gets you in. or sub 412 mile.

maybe youve coached someone like that.

something.

basement dwellers of a feather must stick together. and stay in the basement.

and the rest can learn something

7 years ago 04/18/2019 12:20am EDT

re: longjack

basically if you want to know what boston penalty is, just compare like 10 top guys over the last 20 years and compare with other courses. stats.

it appears that boston has a 2 to 3 minute penalty over the fastest courses.

somebody else can do the math properly

7 years ago 04/18/2019 5:25am EDT

re: longjack

I've run dozens of marathons and my fastest time was run at Boston.

7 years ago 04/18/2019 7:21am EDT

re: Hillz

Leaving aside the weather, Boston is a fair course. What makes it hard is that it ruthlessly punishes mistakes.

NYCM is harder.

7 years ago 04/18/2019 7:29am EDT

re: grox

grox wrote:
The course is not eligible for records, it does not comply with the IAAF rules. You cannot set a PB on it. Basically, it is not a marathon.

Yep, but most people don't like to hear that, because it's sooooo historical.

7 years ago 04/18/2019 8:17am EDT

re: OAT

OAT wrote:
I am always advising people that Boston is not set up to run their best race. If everything works out OK that's great, but aiming for a PB should not be the main goal (some people keep 'Boston PBs' separate from 'lifetime PBs"). Weather, wind and hills are the most obvious reasons but I think there are a few more subtle factors at play.
- The logistics of race morning. Getting up really early, busing out to the start, hanging around the athlete village for hours, and being in the corrals for 30-45mins before starting are all less than ideal.
- The 10am start (or later if not in Wave 1) is also something that most weekend warrior runners are not used to. Most people run earlier or later in the day for the vast majority of their training. Consider 3hr marathoner - a 'normal' marathon starting at 7 or 8am has them finished by 11am; at Boston that same 3hr run is between 10/10:25/10:50am to 1-2pm, which usually has the most heat, wind and intense sunlight of the day.
- The runners I coach all live and train in winter climates. Unless we get a really early spring there is little to no heat acclimation. Even a normal April day feels overly hot and unusual.
These little things taken on their own may not amount to much, but taken together they become something significant. Some things can be practiced or dealt with (ie. planning some long runs for later in the day and rehearsing race morning) but for many race day is the first time all of these variables are thrown at them and it can be enough of a tipping point to make PBs rare...even if they are in prime physical shape to run their best.

Several things making more-- and muddier-- debate. Terrible course or terrible race if you want a PB are two separate, but related arguments.

I do agree with OAT here. Best setups for me for a PR would avoid point-to-point courses, big changes in elevation (including "helpful" downhill drops), logistical hassles of an event race, and season-location combo, and day/time of day.

Some people thrive in the Boston Marathon environment; I certainly do not. One time, long ago, was plenty.

7 years ago 04/18/2019 8:37am EDT

re: Forest Gump here

As someone who has run Boston 19x and run sections of the course 100s of times, my opinion is that Boston absolutely is a PR course.

The problem is that the course has a higher variance than flatter courses. At Boston a small error in pace or form early on can hurt you tremendously later in the race. You won't find this issue in flatter marathons. There is less margin for error at Boston. Thus, you'll see a higher percentage of runners blowing up at Boston than at flat marathons. I'd also suspect you'd see a pretty high number of people PRing as well.

When your pace and form are spot on, I think it is faster than a flat course. I've set two PRs there (as well as having my two slowest marathons). From anecdotal evidence from myself and other runners, it takes a couple of tries to nail down the right personal strategy. When you get it right, it is a fast course.

And someone earlier said something about the last 5 miles not being beneficial even though it is mainly downhill all the way. Pure BS. If you've run it correctly (and trained well, of course), those last 5 are a breeze. It feels like you are flying. However, if you've run it poorly, they can be more challenging than the Newton Hills.

7 years ago 04/18/2019 9:02am EDT

re: NicholasThompson

Congrats - that's a great time. You said the weather turned out to be pretty good ... that's the first I've heard a Boston 2019 runner say that. From afar, seemed too warm and humid, especially based on the parameters in your article. Guessing that the key was managing your effort for those 16 miles.

7 years ago 04/18/2019 7:17pm EDT

re: Congrats NT

So refreshing to read a running article by a good runner in a non-running magazine. I figured it was gonna be the usual running perspective from a 4-5 hour marathoner like you see in RW. ! When I read it, I was like this guy makes some good points.

Congrats on the PR and giving Masters runners hope!

7 years ago 04/19/2019 8:31pm EDT

re: LetsRun.com

What shoe was the Wired guy wearing? Did he use the Vaporfly elite flyprint $350 version? I haven't seen that colorway. Was it a Vaporfly even?

7 years ago 04/19/2019 8:45pm EDT

re: LetsRun.com

I suppose, but 41% (10856 finishers out of 28632 finishers) 2019 Boston Marathoners finishers qualified for next year’s Boston Marathon. Besides one outlier race, marathons have their best chance of qualifying for scoring a BM Qualifying time at the home race.

7 years ago 04/19/2019 9:03pm EDT

re: BlackSwanGroup262

BlackSwanGroup262 wrote:
I suppose, but 41% (10856 finishers out of 28632 finishers) 2019 Boston Marathoners finishers qualified for next year’s Boston Marathon. Besides one outlier race, marathons have their best chance of qualifying for scoring a BM Qualifying time at the home race.

What are the stats for re-entries? I suppose if I lived in MA, I'd run every year. But as an out-of towner, it's too freaking expensive. Interesting that the number of BQs at Boston is down this year from last.

7 years ago 04/21/2019 1:52pm EDT

re: BlackSwanGroup262

BlackSwanGroup262 wrote:
I suppose, but 41% (10856 finishers out of 28632 finishers) 2019 Boston Marathoners finishers qualified for next year’s Boston Marathon. Besides one outlier race, marathons have their best chance of qualifying for scoring a BM Qualifying time at the home race.

Pretty certain that 2019 Boston had only 26,737 finishers;)

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Wired's Nicholas Thompson on Boston: "It’s a terrible course if you want a personal best." Agree or Disagree?

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