60 mpw all at 7 pace, but haven't run a Sub 3 Marathon

people are strange wrote:

I know a guy who runs 80-100+ miles per week, almost always at sub-7:00 pace. His marathon PR is around 3:05. He never does workouts and never tapers. Someone called him out on it once, and he said that he’d rather put up big numbers than chase PRs. I can’t imagine putting that much time and effort into running and not at least try to race at your potential, but everyone is different.

I did that, for years. I didn't race for years, because I knew I didn't have enough threshold work in me. I never DID threshold stuff, because it cut down the number of miles I could do. For this, and other reasons, I was simply happy to run straight 100 mile weeks at a quick(er) pace.

I lift in a gym now, a few times each week. A couple of guys are really good at this. I have no idea if they go to powerlifting contests, or bodybuilding events or whatever. I tend to think that sometimes the journey, or the process is good enough.

It's not all about racing.

His training is actually very good because he can run 2:38 marathon while having 1:17 HM PR. There are few who can pull this off. I trained like him when I was 42-43 years old, running only 3-4 times a week but fairly hard, for two years and approached my HM PR of 1:17 from 3 years ago when I ran 5-6 times a week with a more polarized efforts and also broke my 1500m PR by a few seconds.

stress adaptation wrote:

if the pace for any race feels "easy" you are racing wrong, it's not a long-run

but if you are blowing up after 20-22 miles it's glycogen bonk and you are fueling wrong before/during marathon

then there is a LT wall which would mean your pace was too fast in a marathon and ran yourself to muscle fatigue

Regarding the LT wall, at what mile point or range does this start happening? And how fine a line is it between hitting the LT wall and not hitting it?

BLtheKid wrote:

Regarding the LT wall, at what mile point or range does this start happening? And how fine a line is it between hitting the LT wall and not hitting it?

LT meant lactic-threshold and it can happen at any distance

say you run 100 meters all out

now try to run a full track lap at that pace - you cannot, eventually you fail, have to either slow down or start to walk for awhile before you can run at that 100 meter pace again, that's because lactate begins to accumulate in your blood at a faster rate than it can be removed when you run too fast

hence "LT wall"

if you tried to run a marathon at your best half-marathon pace, same thing

which is why you use something like vdot tables based on your half-marathon time to figure out what your proper marathon pace would be

this is why you sometimes see people who run a marathon too fast "crash and burn" 16-18 miles in, have to walk for awhile before they can run again

It won't happen if you train properly.

*Think* run hard on tired legs. Your body will adapt and start to store fuel differently. The easiest way to do this is just running longer, more frequently. Build up two days a week to 90 minutes and have your long run capped at 2 hours 30. Pace can be easy.

When I started running the coaches I had focused too much on speed work. I did some reading, changed my training and the wall disappeared.

Check out :

Squires "speed endurance"

"healthy intelligent training"

John hadd marathon training

If you can understand the concepts and apply the principals to a plan that works for you you'll improve.

The difference is only 8 seconds per mile between best pace for 20 miles and best pace for 26.2 miles. That's why it is so easy to "hit the wall" around 20 miles.

my race times get me wrote:

It won't happen if you train properly.

*Think* run hard on tired legs. Your body will adapt and start to store fuel differently. The easiest way to do this is just running longer, more frequently. Build up two days a week to 90 minutes and have your long run capped at 2 hours 30. Pace can be easy.

When I started running the coaches I had focused too much on speed work. I did some reading, changed my training and the wall disappeared.

Check out :

Squires "speed endurance"

"healthy intelligent training"

John hadd marathon training

If you can understand the concepts and apply the principals to a plan that works for you you'll improve.

The poster before you talked about a fall-off around 16-18mi. I didn't have to walk but I slowed mile after mile starting just after the halfway point the last two years.

And I was running 90 minutes or even more three or four times a week at an easy pace, doing a hard workout every five or six days (either LT run, MP run or progressive long run).

I think my problem is that instead of an 8:00 pace, I needed to be around 8:15. It's just hard to believe the fall-off starts so early, instead of more like 20mi+.

Hmmm... How was your pre race fueling?

How long were your threshold runs?

When you do workouts make the warm up and cool down longer. Total run time 90 minutes.

Many people hate the heat rate monitor but if used properly it's a great tool. Pros use it... Of course it's not for every run or races but you may want to use it for threshold runs and to keep your easy pace easy. You may also use it to help pacing for the marathon... Use it, learn from it.

my race times get me wrote:

Hmmm... How was your pre race fueling?

How long were your threshold runs?

When you do workouts make the warm up and cool down longer. Total run time 90 minutes.

Many people hate the heat rate monitor but if used properly it's a great tool. Pros use it... Of course it's not for every run or races but you may want to use it for threshold runs and to keep your easy pace easy. You may also use it to help pacing for the marathon... Use it, learn from it.

I think my pre- and in-race fueling was fine. My threshold runs were 5 x 1mi at 7:20-7:25 pace with .15 mi jogs in-between. With 3 more miles added on, total time being around 75 minutes.

I did have hip issues for the last 13 weeks of training though - I was able to keep my mileage up but couldn't risk doing anything faster than MP for the last five weeks and also had to taper for three weeks.

No marathon this year but am currently thinking Phoenix in January 2020 - I'm not going to risk trying for 3:30 and blowing up again, probably between 3:37-3:38 and maybe 3:35 if everything goes perfectly.

beenthere-donethat wrote:

I did that, for years. I didn't race for years, because I knew I didn't have enough threshold work in me. I never DID threshold stuff, because it cut down the number of miles I could do. For this, and other reasons, I was simply happy to run straight 100 mile weeks at a quick(er) pace.

I lift in a gym now, a few times each week. A couple of guys are really good at this. I have no idea if they go to powerlifting contests, or bodybuilding events or whatever. I tend to think that sometimes the journey, or the process is good enough.

It's not all about racing.

How do you know if you are quick? Other people may run less or slower in their training, but that's not comparable, because they may be running at easy or recovery pace. Racing is a good way to know that you are fast.

Racing is very common place and accessible in running. I don't know if same can be said about bodybuilding.

Not that hard to go too fast....... wrote:

The difference is only 8 seconds per mile between best pace for 20 miles and best pace for 26.2 miles. That's why it is so easy to "hit the wall" around 20 miles.

exactly, well said

it sometimes takes inexperienced runners/racers a few times to completely understand this, unless they have good coaching and "follow orders" in which case they might avoid experiencing the problem

people also confuse what I call the "LT Wall" with glycogen-bonk, which are two entirely different problems but both can manifest anywhere from 18-22 miles so they don't understand what is going on

if you walk or slow dramatically and then recover back to pace, it was a LT Wall and you were going too fast, the lactic acid overwhelmed your muscles and didn't clear out fast enough

if you have to walk and or have to slow to a crawl for the rest of the race and never recover, it was likely glycogen bonk and you ran out of fuel

under 20-22 miles you might never face glycogen bonk, depends how you eat

both problems solved by slowing down but of course it's a race and you want to go as fast as possible, hence using half-marathons to find your true lactic threshold and then do an educated guess as to your proper full-marathon pace (and fueling properly for a full, before/during)

Next time don't break up to intervals, do a straight threshold run. Start with 45 minutes and add 5 minutes every week until you are doing 60.

rofl. I run almost everything at 8 minute miles and ran sub 3.