Didn’t see this mentioned, but once I dropped body weight below what is considered average for my height the later miles got a lot easier. Many will disagree, but I’m convinced body weight and size, not speed training, determines most of the outcome.
Training programs wrote:
If it’s happening between 15-18 I’d guess it’s mostly a lack of miles in training. Not just long runs but weekly mileage. Run more.
14-18 is usually a place where there is much less crowd cheering, so it's kind of a no-man's land. You're also just coming down from the 13.1 mile split which you've probably, subconsciously or not, given a lot of attention to . Now suddenly you don't have any critical milestones for a while and the roads get quieter.
if you are ready for it and feeling good, you can really lock into a rhythm and start a negative split or some fast miles and then push hard starting at mile 21-22. if not, it's desolate and long and you'll realize at mile 16 you still have 10 miles to go!
in all of the good races i've ever run, i remember very little about what was going on. whether it's a 400m or a marathon. If you're having a bad race, 15-18 has a lot of memories...
My marathons usually go something like this (at least the ones that go well):
0-10 miles - I need to work to not go too fast.
10-15 - in the zone, pace is locked in
15-20 - Need some concentration to hold pace, but not too physically demanding yet (maybe that is what the OP is talking about)
20-Finish - Progressively harder, stronger and stronger urge to slow down, things start to hurt and become quite uncomfortable.
GRhobbyjogger wrote:
So even if I did a solid Daniels 2Q block in the 60mi/avg range, had a solid half 4-5wks out, using that time and going :10-:20s/mi slower per the VDOT for M pace and still experiencing this...that this is still pacing/undertrained? No possibility of fueling or other stuff?
Think about your total miles per week. At 60 you barely run more than 50% of the miles you expect to race. So what percent of those 60 are at race pace or faster? 25-30% That's close to 15 miles in a marathon "trained" for expecting to be trained for 26. Now look at typical "elite" runners running 100-120 even 140! You're racing only 25 to 15% of your miles and your speed work volume is much higher than 60 mpw. So you're trained for a lot longer into the race.
Easy Peasy wrote:
You ran a 1:44:25, but are expecting to go 3:40? I don't think that's feasible, and may expain what you're feeling. I think you should definitely go for 3:45, not 3:40-3:45, otherwise you will be running 8:25 pace for the first half and thinking how easy it is before reaching that dreaded 15-18 mile stretch you're talking about. As I stated earlier, you cannot expect to convert your half to +10 minutes when you're in the 1:45 half range.
Any you are very correct that going for 3:40 from the gun is foolish. I was actually planning on going out with the 8:35 pace group (yeah this race does pace groups based of celebrity times...so GW Bush for me). I was planning on hanging with them until around mile 16 and if I feel good and confident, start working down to 8:30 and see how it goes. So realistically, maybe a 3:43-3:45 could happen if that works out.
TheReasonWhy wrote:
The reason why?
Most people - including the idiots at Hansons - think that running a 16 mile run will prep you for a marathon. It's a totally different ball game.
This leads to people shorting themselves on the long runs and don't put in the work required to be successful .
If people would pack in the right amount of miles (70-80) and get that consistent long run in (say 18 miles - 22 miles), they would avoid these problems. I actually think a lot of folks would benefit from doing 28 - 30 mile runs.
Instead, they cut corners - look at their half marathon converted time and assume that if they can run a ~1:20 half, they can easily run a 2:50 marathon.
It's not that simple..
Put in the work - get your body used to running for 20+ miles and you'll do just fine.
LOL I ran 30 mile weeks just to stay in shape, ran one 16 miler 6 days before, and it didn't get hard until 25 miles in. Ran 2:35 no problems.
Paul2432 wrote:
My marathons usually go something like this (at least the ones that go well):
0-10 miles - I need to work to not go too fast.
10-15 - in the zone, pace is locked in
15-20 - Need some concentration to hold pace, but not too physically demanding yet (maybe that is what the OP is talking about)
20-Finish - Progressively harder, stronger and stronger urge to slow down, things start to hurt and become quite uncomfortable.
That’s pretty much my experience to a T. You guys will laugh that I use headphones for the first half-plus, but 18 or so was when they went away because at that point, although it’s not exactly hard yet, it definitely demands your attention. 25 and 26 I could have easily slowed down and just lied to myself that I’d hit the wall.
[a 'thon [/quote]
Obviously, you are a lazy dick-face who can’t type the the extra 3 characters to type ‘marathon’
‘thon’ is a dick-face loser abbreviation.
‘thon = 5 characters
marathon= 8
You probably think ‘moran’ and ‘devastated’ are also cool. Tap another keg frat boy!
and we have a winner wrote:
Ezekiel bread wrote:
It's often said that the half way point in the marathon is 20 miles.
That has literally never been said before.
You must be new to running.
GRhobbyjogger wrote:
So a buddy and me were discussing that point in a marathon where things start to get tough. That feeling of fatigue, heavy legs, hamstrings tightening up, whatever. Looking back over both good and bad races, the point seems to happen in the 15-18mi range. Now we both have experienced the wall and glycogen depletion and that is a totally different experience. Does anyone know what it is and the possible cause/cure? Of course the usually suspects of going too fast, undertraining, dehydration, fueling have been brought up.
What do the masters of the LRC boards think of this and any past experiences to avoiding it?
Interesting. I was terrible at the marathon. About 3000m is my max for a real all-out effort, but my marathon was a good 15 minutes slower than my 5000m/10000m times indicated.
Only did two marathons. The first one I was cruising and passing people at 21 miles, and dead at 22 miles. The next year, I got the pacing spot on - only 30 seconds between the two halves - but about 18 miles, even though I wasn't struggling, I had an near-overwhelming urge to stop, even though I wasn't struggling. Mentally, I just didn't want to do it any more. Strangely enough when I got to 20, I started feeling good, and the last six miles, I was passing runners by the dozen - it was London and around the 2:40 range, so very populated - all the way to the finish.
We didn't have gels in those days, so I'm guessing that the 18-20 mark was the switch from glycogen to fat burning, and that the lack of glycogen was causing the body to send signals to stop, even though I was running pretty easily apart from that. When the fat burning kicked in, because I was still quite fresh from a cardio-vascular/muscular standpoint, I was off again.
Prob is your a hobbyjogging pu$$y who doesnt put in enough miles
I'll take the "opposite" fueling approach. After multiple (as in more than a decade) of marathon cycles, using Hansons, Pfitz, Daniels, et al, I never broke 3:30 and ran mostly nearer to 4 hours. Hit the wall in almost every damn marathon. At age 49, I went low carb high fat in training because I felt like I had tried everything else. Then, I ran 3:15 on Pfitz 55mpw.
I fueled on raceday, though. Standard gel every 45 mins kind of thing.
I'm targeting sub-3 now on my 51st B'day at Boston 2019.
This is an anecdote rather than a suggestion.
Paul2432 wrote:
My marathons usually go something like this (at least the ones that go well):
0-10 miles - I need to work to not go too fast.
10-15 - in the zone, pace is locked in
15-20 - Need some concentration to hold pace, but not too physically demanding yet (maybe that is what the OP is talking about)
20-Finish - Progressively harder, stronger and stronger urge to slow down, things start to hurt and become quite uncomfortable.
This was a really good breakdown, def something I'll focus in on for my next marathon. My first go at the distance was rough, but I learned a ton. I like how other posters have focused in on how segments of the race become as much mental as physical.
1.5 cents wrote:
Paul2432 wrote:
My marathons usually go something like this (at least the ones that go well):
0-10 miles - I need to work to not go too fast.
10-15 - in the zone, pace is locked in
15-20 - Need some concentration to hold pace, but not too physically demanding yet (maybe that is what the OP is talking about)
20-Finish - Progressively harder, stronger and stronger urge to slow down, things start to hurt and become quite uncomfortable.
This was a really good breakdown, def something I'll focus in on for my next marathon. My first go at the distance was rough, but I learned a ton. I like how other posters have focused in on how segments of the race become as much mental as physical.
I really liked this breakdown too and the posts in general. I know for me and probably others, mental is something that can be improved to deal with this stuff (not all of it, but "sucking it up" to get through a rough patch). My last marathon I crumbled around 18-20 and slogged until 24.5 and then got back on MP(or close to it). So physically I still had it in me.
get a grip hobbyjogger wrote:
There's nothing mysterious about the last 1/3 of a race being tough. If you can't keep up the same pace it's because you went out too fast and weren't fit enough to handle it.
Ketogenic running rocks! I don't do marathons any more, but enjoy long trail runs that go for hours without undue fatigue, without need for refueling along the way.
Great breakthrough, a tribute to your persistence in finding the best method, one that will keep youhealthier in years to come as well. Good luck on your sub-3 quest.
Coach Jeff ROC wrote:
I'll take the "opposite" fueling approach. After multiple (as in more than a decade) of marathon cycles, using Hansons, Pfitz, Daniels, et al, I never broke 3:30 and ran mostly nearer to 4 hours. Hit the wall in almost every damn marathon. At age 49, I went low carb high fat in training because I felt like I had tried everything else. Then, I ran 3:15 on Pfitz 55mpw.
I fueled on raceday, though. Standard gel every 45 mins kind of thing.
I'm targeting sub-3 now on my 51st B'day at Boston 2019.
This is an anecdote rather than a suggestion.
Ketogenic running rocks! I don't do marathons any more, but enjoy long trail runs that go for hours without undue fatigue, without need for refueling along the way.
Great breakthrough, a tribute to your persistence in finding the best method, one that will keep youhealthier in years to come as well. Good luck on your sub-3 quest.
qfe wrote:
get a grip hobbyjogger wrote:
There's nothing mysterious about the last 1/3 of a race being tough. If you can't keep up the same pace it's because you went out too fast and weren't fit enough to handle it.
But you should experience some level of fatigue, or else it means that you left some time out there on the course.
Typically, runners who struggle at those miles have failed to do the following:
1-Train well enough and show up prepared
2-Eat. Eat at least three hours before the marathon. Not heavy, just maybe a bagel with peanut butter.
3-Paced properly in the race./ Ran "within themselves"