Kip Keino and six other senior Kenyan officials charged with corruption

isn't there a suggestion in one of the books on lovelock that he was willing to inject "magic cure" into his knee so he could run . To suggest that in 1968 everybody was on drugs is just a bit nutty . Trying different things to run faster is actually what we do by training , diet, hydration and even silly things like pre race rituals . Remember it was 1968 and everybody was trying to work out how to beat the altitude . Keino was an amazing athlete just as Ryan was . Keino was better on the day . One of the saddest moments was Ryan falling in his heat in 1972 , ironically he'd be reinstated now and get a start in the next round but hey that was 1972 and things were different .

Bad Wigins wrote:

Aragon wrote:

as far as I can recall, the improvement in the few studies (Peter Karpovich, Gene M. Smith...) from the 1950's and 1960's was more in the range of some 1-1.5 %.

1.5% of 206 seconds is 3.09 seconds; 3:26.00 - 3.09 = 3:22.91

But anyhow, how can a study really understand the potential of dope use if they're not fully aware of how it's used at the top level? The athletes who do it most effectively aren't likely to volunteer as subjects.

I'm still waiting for him to explain why nearly all the top 60's runners (save for the Soviet Bloc athletes) are now in their eighties, alive, and mostly in good health.

They nearly all had short careers, with 1 or 2 years at their peak, and retired young.

A lot of their careers were shortened due to injuries because they didn't have the advances in sports medicine technology available today.

Not Buying It wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

1.5% of 206 seconds is 3.09 seconds; 3:26.00 - 3.09 = 3:22.91

But anyhow, how can a study really understand the potential of dope use if they're not fully aware of how it's used at the top level? The athletes who do it most effectively aren't likely to volunteer as subjects.

They nearly all had short careers, with 1 or 2 years at their peak, and retired young.

A lot of their careers were shortened due to injuries because they didn't have the advances in sports medicine technology available today.

And because it was just too costly to travel around the world competing for no money throughout their twenties. They had to get a job. Guys like Bannister and Snell had to put down their spikes and their amphetamines and start their distinguished careers in medicine etc.

It's fair enough that if the top athletes were only using amphetamines in Olympic finals or the really big races, it might not have done them much long-term harm, especially in short careers. But surely (if usage was widespread as Bad Wiggins claims) some elite runners would have gone the full hog, as in the EPO era, and used the stuff to grind out insane training sessions every day for years? And surely, not only would their health be destroyed, they would develop hardcore addictions to the stuff?

Wouldn't there also be some visible signs of athletes being on amphetamines, such as being wide eyed?

There's a video of Douglas Lowe winning his second 800m Olympic gold in 1928 with an astonishing kick, and you can imagine that this is the kind of look after the race that somebody pumped up on stimulants would have (I don't think he was on anything, just pumped at winning gold).

Don't over think amphetamines in T&F. It's a know fact amphetamines were sitting in MLB locker rooms openly through at least 1970's. Athletes, sport reports, everyone knows. Don't twist yourself in a pretzel over thinking amphetamines in T&F. It's not logical to believe amphetamines were openly used in baseball locker rooms but were shunned in track & field locker rooms.

So you have no academic reference and in any case it is difficult to conduct a real blind study with a substance with euphoric properties and the studies are prone to be biased to give too high performance increase because of placebo effect when some participants know they are using the real thing.

And even the high end figure of 1.5 % leaves some 70-80 % of the 15 second improvement unexplained, but just cut that problem out when quoting my post and it doesn't exist, that is the way to go!

Sprintgeezer wrote:

Btw, this is a bit ridiculous. I know I am the biggest anti-doping guy on here or anywhere

Yeah, that statement is ridiculous.

You went away for a while. You should have stayed away mate.

El Keniano wrote:

Here's the full race from '68. If Ryun was in the shape to go with Keino, he's entirely to blame for letting him out of his reach. But something tells me Kip wouldn't have lost to anyone that day no matter what.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_9AAy7yZTc

Not saying Ruyn was the better runner, but this was at altitude. Its just ridiculous to compare. An altitude born runner like Keino had a massive advantage.

How do you get from top Kenyan officials "siphoning money" meant for Kenyan athletes to "suspicion over (Keino's) 1968 gold"? Nothing in the BBC article talked about doping. Do you just google for "Kenya" and report anything as a pretense for accusing them of doping?

+1

I'm amazed that THE Kip Keino still is alive. Seems like a lot of good African runs die youngish.

Repeated studies have shown caffeine gives a c1% boost, so it isn't unplausible that other stimulant-type drugs could deliver a superior performance. Interestingly, the sea-level 100m WR barely improved between 1964 and 1990, if we take out Ben Johnson (which officially has happened). That in itself asks for an investigation.

The noce thing about these threads started by Coevett and his weird obsession with Kenya is they seem to absorb all the idiots for awhile and they stay out of the other threads.

LOL that Russia was banned but not Kenya !!

You can't just take 1.5% off of 3:26 as if that time were clean. 1.5% might be from a clean athlete using amphetamines, but then again the 3:26 might have been achieved via EPO, giving 2% or more (and we know that Asbel Kiprop (3:26.69) was using EPO, while Lagat did get a positive test, later annulled, and El G's training partners and coach's other athletes tested positive and were banned for EPO and successors).

BC authorities wrote:

LOL that Russia was banned but not Kenya !!

Ryun lost by 20 metres. Live with it.

He has Google alerts for anything Kenya.

Hmmm..it's not hard unless you are a morally dubious character yourself RekRunner. Most of us can see the connection between cheating for financial gain in athletics (doping) and cheating for financial gain in athletics (corruption), and if somebody guilty of the latter is a former athlete, it makes it more likely he was also guilty of the former in his time as an athlete, especially when Kenyan athletics has been exposed a sewer of corruption AND doping, and has likely been so for decades.

troll under a bridge wrote:

The noce thing about these threads started by Coevett and his weird obsession with Kenya is they seem to absorb all the idiots for awhile and they stay out of the other threads.

Weird obsession with Kenya? I'm a passionate track fan who believes the sport should be clean, and there's been how many failed doping tests from the nation that dominates the sport this year? I find it weird that you find it weird. Would it be weird if I was focused on Russia instead of Kenya? (I suspect if Russia was allowed back in and started dominating distance running, you and El K and a few others here would develop an 'obsession' with posting about Russia and doping).

You freaks almost got me banned or at least almost persuaded the Brojos to bring in a rule of no posts on Kenyan doping, but now they know the likes of Nick Willis are avid readers and agree with just about everything I (and the likes of Subway) say, your chance has gone.

I count seven things wrong in your post. But I'll restrain myself to two: - I guess these "most of you" see what you want, but there is no such connection - Being charged with something doesn't mean he's guilty

Coevett wrote:

Hmmm..it's not hard unless you are a morally dubious character yourself RekRunner. Most of us can see the connection between cheating for financial gain in athletics (doping) and cheating for financial gain in athletics (corruption), and if somebody guilty of the latter is a former athlete, it makes it more likely he was also guilty of the former in his time as an athlete, especially when Kenyan athletics has been exposed a sewer of corruption AND doping, and has likely been so for decades.