Struggling at Half Marathons...why?

I didn't read through the whole thread so clue me in here brother, but I am intrigued by your summary as I ran a 1:34 this past May on 25-30 mpw. I didn't get the mileage or workouts I would have hoped for, and like you, was cruising between 6:50-7:05 until mile 10, then I started fading, ultimately running 1:34:28 at Pitt, a hilly course. What kind of terrain are you training you on? What works for some, may not work for others, so I always account for that, but I've found training on hilly terrain over the years has supplemented my speed work a lot. Some may disagree, but there has to be something there with the lack of cumulative miles I read about many doing on these threads. What's your running and athletic history up to this point? I applaud your workout efforts as the idea of going through 1000m reps solo after work just sounds like pure torture. Stay at it, you'll hit that target pace soon enough! Don't be afraid to mix up the approach too.

For those who have asked...

Mile PR is 4:53 at age 33 indoors. I have ran 16:58 for a 5K on a very fast, non-certified course on a 40 degree day in October about 3 years ago. 29:56 for a 8K earlier that year.

I've been running for about 8 years...averaging about 40mpw.

Height and weight: 6-2...and I bounce around 159-167 lbs depending on miles, heavy eating days, weeks off, hot summer running, etc.

TMC92 You raced on a warm hudid day. You will go faster in cooler weather.

You need to improve your times over short distances. Without that, you ain't going nowhere fast.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

80s guy wrote:

Reading this thread I feel like we are reliving the 90s. It is obvious that you are not doing enough mileage to reach your goals.

No, stop this rubbish on the boards. It`s NOT a matter of more mileage, it`s more HOW the mileage done has been run up to the very best individual paces.

Im really starting to like you J.S, starting to say things that make sense for a change. I agree with you too. He needs to train a bit smarter, no need for silly mileages for a sub 90. Or even sub 80. I almost think it's an intelligence thing with some of you guys, can't work out what's wrong so you just default to the 'run more' excuse. Which will work but isn't ideal use of time unless your a pro or retired.

TMC92 wrote:

For those who have asked...

Mile PR is 4:53 at age 33 indoors. I have ran 16:58 for a 5K on a very fast, non-certified course on a 40 degree day in October about 3 years ago. 29:56 for a 8K earlier that year.

I've been running for about 8 years...averaging about 40mpw.

Height and weight: 6-2...and I bounce around 159-167 lbs depending on miles, heavy eating days, weeks off, hot summer running, etc.

Wow these are mega red flags. You can run a 4:53/16:58 but can't break 1:30 while weighing only 160-165 at 6'2 and running 50-60 mpw? You should easily be breaking 1:25 at this point, and honestly 1:20 should be in the cards.

Are you sure there isn't a component of your training that you need that is just mental? This is not to take a jab, but there's such an important part of half marathons of learning to push through pain around the mile 8 mark. I pretty much start red lining at that point. Something to think about, but I doubt it given you can run fast 5Ks. Otherwise, there is something seriously wrong with how you are training because everything says sub 1:25.

I would highly recommend doing all your threshold stuff based off your current half marathon fitness of 1:35, which means 20 minute tempo runs or cruise intervals like 3x2mi or 6x1mi at 7:05 pace. It may seem painfully slow to you, but there's a good chance you are just running your best races in training.

One other thing to consider is fast finish long runs. Something like 12 miles around 8:30 with your last 3 miles at 7:00 pace.

A couple things stick out. This is guy is clearly a miler/mid-distance guy and has been training like one. A 4:53 mile in your 30's is impressive. He's got to stop crushing 1000's and do long threshold runs....no more hard intervals. I know girls in their early 30's who can't break 19 in the 5K and would mop the floor with this guy in a 10 mile race.

You ran a semi-hilly mid-summer half and won it with nobody pushing you or to chase after. That is not easy to do. A flatter, colder, race with more competition could probably give you a 1:32. If you would have stuck to 7:05's the whole race you wouldn't have hit the wall at mile 10.

Rick Sanchez wrote:

It sounds like you are racing through your training runs, which leaves you burned out for your races,

this. Based on Daniel's, if you run a 1:35 half, you should be able to do about a 3:18 full, but your easy training pace (what you do during those really long runs) should be between 8:13 to 9:15, average somewhere around the middle on an average topography (slower on hilly, faster on flat). Without a watch, just call it conversational pace. And most of your runs should be like this. Faster stuff only once a week is sufficient when it comes to training for the full for a recreational runner. Good luck.

I agree with this. He needs to stick to those 3x2 and 6x1 threshold workouts (with occasional longer tempos in the 20-30 minute range) and stop doing anything faster than 7:00 until he demonstrates he can race those speeds at longer distances.

Bleach wrote:

TMC92 wrote:

- I have done long runs of 17, 18, and 19 miles. All of them have been around a comfortable 7:35 pace.

After you've built a base, long slow running has no use for building speed endurance.

You've the base speed but lack the endurance, try to alternate

- Long steady runs, up to 10-13 miles @7:00 mile pace (your race target is about 6:50)

- Fast finish long runs, up to 12-15 miles. Start easy the first half and speed up in the last few miles to close faster than your target pace (6:40 - 6:30 is enough)

18-19 mile longs are overkill for a half at your level and may leave you tired for the rest of the week.

Also, as someone else stated, doing intervals @5:30-6:00 is too hard considering your target is 1 minute slower.

Don't bury yourself in training and you'll be fine.

You expect him to do 13 mile runs in training at a pace only 10 seconds slower than his goal race pace? Talk about horrible advice.

Also anyone saying he needs more mileage is a clown. The guy obviously has some talent. There is no reason someone with that much talent should need 80 miles a week to run 1:30. Long tempos and stuff like 2x3 and 3x2 will get him there.

mellow seeds wrote:

Also anyone saying he needs more mileage is a clown. The guy obviously has some talent. There is no reason someone with that much talent should need 80 miles a week to run 1:30. Long tempos and stuff like 2x3 and 3x2 will get him there.

You're the MF clown, if he did nothing but easy jogging 80+ miles per week he could easily go sub 1:20 in the half marathon.

Lydiard Cerutty wrote:

mellow seeds wrote:

Also anyone saying he needs more mileage is a clown. The guy obviously has some talent. There is no reason someone with that much talent should need 80 miles a week to run 1:30. Long tempos and stuff like 2x3 and 3x2 will get him there.

You're the MF clown, if he did nothing but easy jogging 80+ miles per week he could easily go sub 1:20 in the half marathon.

I agree, mileage is king when you are running 10K and above, especially for ST runners. Once you're running enough mileage you can start adding to it with harder workouts. But throwing more specialized workouts on 60 miles a week is like putting icing on a cake that is not baked. 60 miles a week is low mileage, especially for a half marathon. At least get up to a medium amount of mileage like 80 miles per week.

TMC92 wrote:

My splits were:

6:44 (downhill)

7:08

6:57

7:03

7:14

6:56

7:17

7:13

7:00

7:21

7:25

7:41 (uphill)

7:42 (uphill)

I also won this race (low turnout) and had the lead the entire time, which made it not the ideal situation for pacing. Whether was humid...but not hot at all. Maybe 70 degrees tops.

Did you warm up? What pace do you normally start your runs at? Are your best races when you start slower and build into it, or start fast and hang on? Was the race more humid than most of your training runs?

This is my general sense of your training: the interval training is fine, but you are doing more 10k type training. You should be doing more long tempos, and/or intervals after a run rather than as your run. Something like 6-8 miles at race pace following by your tempos.

Also make sure your easy days are easy. For you that might mean 8:00 or slower pace. If I were you, I'd probably run most of my mile on 3 days and just go out for easy jogs or take off the other days - though maybe one easy hour long run a week in addition your three days at closer to race pace.

For your race, make sure your warm up, and still start slower the first mile or two (or 3).

another runner wrote:

Lydiard Cerutty wrote:

You're the MF clown, if he did nothing but easy jogging 80+ miles per week he could easily go sub 1:20 in the half marathon.

I agree, mileage is king when you are running 10K and above, especially for ST runners. Once you're running enough mileage you can start adding to it with harder workouts. But throwing more specialized workouts on 60 miles a week is like putting icing on a cake that is not baked. 60 miles a week is low mileage, especially for a half marathon. At least get up to a medium amount of mileage like 80 miles per week.

These have to be troll posts. You're recommending 80 MPW to break 1:30 for a guy that can break 17 in a 5k???

Please OP for the love of God do not listen to these people. They are mouth breathers that read any problem in halfs or fulls and say "run more mileage" and that's it. Yes, of COURSE, you will get better if you run 80+ MPW. But there is absolutely no need to. That's just a complete waste of time. If you had trouble breaking 1:20 given your other times, I would agree that you need more miles.

I knew a guy who ran a similar time (1:32, on a not particularly hilly course) in summer, and when the weather got cooler, he dropped a 2:47 full. Granted, he was running 70-80 mpw at the time (actually he still is).

If OP feels okay at 60-70 miles, I don''t think upping mileage is necessary either. What he needs is a good race at 50-60F temp. His 5K and training clearly demonstrate the ability to break 1:25. Actualy, I wouldn't be surprised if the OP dipped into 1:21-1:22.

Your workouts sound a bit too hard. I've run 1:28 flat and 8x1000 at 6:00 pace with 1min rests sounds borderline impossible for me.

Also, the 19 mile run at 7:35 pace being "comfortable" doesn't really add up either.

Choose a flat and fast course, taper, break 90. You really should be able to do it.

You say of course he will get better if he runs more but then you say it is a complete waste of time. Well which is it? There are no short cuts to running faster. He can do things the right way and actually achieve his goal or just try to do the minimal amount of work and cross his fingers. His choice.

It's a waste of time because he could get the times he wants without adding an extra 3 hours of running per week. You might as well tell everyone that runs 90 MPW asking for marathon advice to go run 120 MPW, because it's been shown to be highly correlated to improve times. The point is that MPW is a very blunt instrument and although it works, it may not be the most efficient. There are diminishing returns going up in mileage when he can easily fix this with better training given his goals.

If he was running 60 MPW but couldn't break 1:45, would you say the same thing, just run more mileage? What about 2:00? What if he couldn't break 1:45 running 80 MPW?

The answer for everything isn't "run more miles" when there are better solutions available given the information available.