He asked what the "most bogus" record is. The are both bogus but The 200M is more bogus than the 400M.
He asked what the "most bogus" record is. The are both bogus but The 200M is more bogus than the 400M.
The Weomen's WR for a road 8k, set at Crazy 8's, is bogus as well.
Stater of the Obvious wrote:
He asked what the "most bogus" record is. The are both bogus but The 200M is more bogus than the 400M.
Why would one be more "bogus" than another if they were both from the same potentially drugged athlete. For that matter, how can any one drugged performance be considered more "bogus" than another? Perhaps one athlete had more or higher quality chemicals to work with? I think when discussing these enhanced records we have to realize these athletes were taking anything and everything they could get a hold of, with the constraint of having to pass drug tests (taking short acting testosterone esters, designer drugs, timing their EPO/EPO derivative usage, masking agents, switching samples, etc...). Among dopers, the playing field is essential level.
Perhaps the question should have been, "which record is most obviously tainted?"
I think he's getting at the fact that the Atlanta track was deemed (by a few people) to be illegal. Hence the reason why the 200m WR might be more bogus than the 400m WR.
Daniel Komen is clean. He is Kenyan; for you to speak about Kenyans taking performance enhancing drugs is a slander on some of the best human beings around, much less distance runners. You do not understand the Kenyan attitude if you think the fast Kenyans are doping.
In fact, can you name even one prominent male world record holder or top runner from Kenya today against whom you have any reasonable evidence?
With Flojo, Jarmila, and Wang, there are legitimate gripes. Jarmila's entire physique changed and her voice deepened. Wang's coach was simply off the wall and no one had a clue what went on in those Chinese camps. Flojo, a healthy 38 year old world class athlete, dropped dead for no apparent reason.
But many, many people have gone to Kenya, lived with these guys, spoken to them, written about them, trained with them, and raced with them. And, WITHOUT FAIl, the conclusion by anyone in the know is unanimous: The Kenyans work as hard as anyone else, have great talent, and an unbreakable will to win. The use of artificial performance enhancers does not even exist in their lexicon, and were it there, it would be no doubt as odious to them as it is to us.
Komen was at the top from 1994, when he was a Commonwealth 10K finalist, even until today. Of course, he has faded, but he is still in the low 13:00 range for 5K as recently as 1-2 years ago.
His best years were from 1996-1998, when he attempted world records some 25 times and destroyed the immense aerobic base he developed as a Kenyan youth in Kim McDonald's "training camp" (re: hammerfest).
Simply put, 8 x 1 mile in 4:10-4:12, or repeat miles in 3:59-4:02, or stepdowns in 3:52, 2:51, 1:51, 52, 24, or endless hill sprints have a way of wearing on even the best athletes. You cannot maintain that level for very long. Gebrselassie was never doing repeat miles in 3:51, nor was he training with all sorts of foreign athletes at a camp in London doing sub-4:00 mile pace. The intensity for him was high, but he kept his aerobic base and picked his races sparingly and intelligently.
I guess it depends on how you define "most bogus"...if you want to split hairs.
THe OP obviously want to know what the most tainted, most bogus, most off the freakin charts record in existence is.
Michael Johnson's 200M is more tainted, more bogus and more off the freakin charts than his 400M record. His 400M record is humanly possible, is 200M record is not.
Hey mos,
2 words
Pamela Chepchumba
2 more words
Bernard Lagat
Twelve words:
Ambrose Bitok
Joseph Sitienei
Janet Ongera
Laban Kagika
Simon Kemboi
Delilah Asiago
Most bogus event. Womens shot all time list.
I would not bet tuppence on any of the marks on this list being drug free.
I really don't get this whole "illegal track" thing. I understand that the Atlanta track surface was claimed to be too hard and therefore produced faster than usual sprint times because softer surfaces absorb more energy. But who in the world decided that having a hard surface that produces fast times should be illegal??
Stater of the Obvious wrote:
Hey mos,
2 words
Pamela Chepchumba
4 words: Read what I wrote.
Is Pamela a male Kenyan distance runner?
The IAAF has a standard for track hardness based on energy return, and they actually have a spec that can be downloaded from their site. The story about Atlanta is that they blatantly violated the IAAF standard to benefit the sprint results, and after 19.32, they cut up the track after the Olympics to destroy the evidence. Remember, Mennea's record had stood for many years, and it wasn't just Michael Johnson that ran under it: So did Frank Fredericks.
Speeve wrote:
2 more words
Bernard Lagat
1 word for you: Expire.
If by now you've missed the fact that Lagat was innocent and that WADA officials BUTCHERED the testing procedure, you're:
1. stupid
2. illiterate
3. ignorant
4. stupid, illiterate, ignorant, and a generally abysmal excuse for an intelligent being capable of producing logical thought
I tend towards #4.
mos def wrote:
Is Pamela a male Kenyan distance runner?
So Kenyan males are "some of the best, hard-working human beings around... with an unbreakable will to win... for whom drugs do not exist in their lexicon", but the Kenyan women are completely different??
I know you asked people to name Kenyan males for which there exists evidence of doping (and the names of five Kenyan males have been subsequently mentioned), but why not include the Kenyan women in this? Do they work less? Are they not some of the best human beings around? Do they not share the same will to win? Do they know all about drugs?
Rip Hamilton's 4:30 Mile time is the most bogus PR that I've heard.
Semantics aside, nothing has been proven here. As for all those people you named: links, articles, evidence?
There are far, far more Americans who have tested positive and American athletes have far more access to drugs than Kenyans.
Why not accuse the best Americans of drugs? Maybe the best Americans are mediocre at best and only got to where they are with drugs?
Of course, the above is ludicrous, but no more so than the theory that Kenyans are dirty because they are fast. If you are going to slander someone, you better have proof, and none exists here.
there are definitely such things as performance-enhancing drugs
there are definitely some athletes that use these drugs and some athletes that don't use them
given that, which one would you expect to do the best - the ones that use the drugs or the ones that don't use the drugs?
i would say you have to go with the ones on drugs.
it's unfortunate, but that's why the people who post the best marks are suspect - because it only makes sense that whoever does the best is on drugs. if they were clean, then someone on drugs would come along and beat them.
mos def wrote:
Semantics aside, nothing has been proven here. As for all those people you named: links, articles, evidence? If you are going to slander someone, you better have proof, and none exists here.
The proof DOES exist. All the athletes I named have previously failed doping tests and have served bans. If you want the proof, go buy the ATFS annuals from recent years and look at the "Drugs Bans" sections. They can all easily be found in there.
mos def wrote:
There are far, far more Americans who have tested positive and American athletes have far more access to drugs than Kenyans.
Why not accuse the best Americans of drugs? Maybe the best Americans are mediocre at best and only got to where they are with drugs?
I don't doubt that whatsoever, but there is no-one here granting the Americans an aura of being 'squeaky clean' and 'without fault', so there is no need for me to post any evidence of the contrary.
Now, if YOU'RE going to claim that ALL Kenyans are the best humans on earth and that they ALL don't believe in doping, then YOU provide the proof. Or, you could retract your original statement and instead say that "most Kenyans are hard-working and don't believe in drugs, etc...".
meichenl wrote:
there are definitely such things as performance-enhancing drugs
there are definitely some athletes that use these drugs and some athletes that don't use them
given that, which one would you expect to do the best - the ones that use the drugs or the ones that don't use the drugs?
i would say you have to go with the ones on drugs.
it's unfortunate, but that's why the people who post the best marks are suspect - because it only makes sense that whoever does the best is on drugs. if they were clean, then someone on drugs would come along and beat them.
Faulty logic.
The people already at the very, very top (El Guerrouj, Bekele, Shaheen, Kipchoge, Sihine, Chebii, Mottram) have no need of drugs.
Drugs would introduce for them only a real danger of injury or death, not an improvement in performance.
The ones who benefit most from drugs are the ones on the cusp. Lombard, Mourhit, Said-Sief, Boulami; all good athletes beforehand, but people who really skyrocketed to the top after using drugs.
Remember Tergat's 5 straight X-C wins? Guess who ended that? DRug cheat Mourhit.
Remember Komen's 7:20? Only Morceli had come close with 7:25, then also El Guerrouj and Gebrselassie. Guess who else has a 7:25? Said-Sief, the 2001 silver medalist in the 5K.
Boulami was good but just took chunks out of the records when he get on drugs.