Breaking: Caster Semenya WILL challenge IAAF's new rules on hyperandrogenism

Attack Tyronecopter wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPMDCJrRpT8

F'k me that's priceless ?

Gaylord Ruppture wrote:

Wtf?! Did you just decide to stick your fingers in your ears and sing out "la la la la" when posting that? You can't expect people to take your point seriously if you simply choose to ignore the actual point of debate...

The post you are referring to was by El Keniano, which explains everything.

I've voiced my opinion many times on the Caster Semenya issue and guess it's pretty much a waste of time because it looks like Caster's going to still run the women's 800 and blow the entire field away each race. All right Caster you freaking win - you could compete with semi elite men and PB at 1:49 or 1:48, but instead you want to destroy a womens field and showboat by flexing your arms after your "victory" - go ahead and run in the womens 800, but if I see you on TV you're no more than a freaking rabbit and in my mind 2nd will actually be 1st, 3rd second ect ect , and when you're interviewed I'll mute the TV - go ahead get it out of your system - be like a varsity football team beating up on a JV football team then showboating - be like Burger King "have it your way" Your victories and Gold medals mean nothing to me so enjoy yourself. Can't wait until you retire so I can see exciting womens 800 racing again - guess I'll have to wait a few more years!

LGBT is dying to be smacked back down and put in their place, and all these "civil rights" actions they are taking to integrate transgenders into womens sports is just the latest scheme to get attention. Trust me, they are doing a big sh&t test and they are YEARNING to be put in their place.

Whilst this argument makes sense in principle, and I agree with it to some level, the issue is slightly different to those examples you put forward.

There are specific categories in athletics to separate people with high testosterone and male phenotype physical attributes from those with low testosterone and female phenotype physical attributes.

If there was a tall and short category in basketball, a short player that suddenly went under a growth spurt to be 6' 5" could not continue to compete in the short category. If they weren't good enough to get picked by any of the tall teams then they just wouldn't play basketball any more.

There is no suitable example that exists to explain the unique and specific issue that is Caster Semenya in athletics.

I'd go as far as to say that Semenya's specific case is one that has no equal even compared to other cases of intersex women in sports. Her total domination and unbeatable ability along with her masculine physical features (big muscles, big chest, wide shoulders and overall size) creates an assumption and feeling that she must have an unfair advantage that crosses a line of expected variation between individuals. Dutee Chand also had high testosterone, but her physical appearance is 'feminine' and she is not a sprinter that has had any success so nobody cares or thinks twice about it. In her case testosterone levels don't appear to 'matter'.

I'm not sure that Niyonsaba has any intersex conditions, but if we say for argument's sake she does, I don't think there would be any where near the controversy around Niyonsaba as there is surrounding Caster. Even Niyonsaba probably wouldn't be subject to the scrutiny she is now if Caster didn't exist. She doesn't dominate in the same way or have an appearance that makes the average Westerner think she is 'male'.

acebond wrote:

Rojo - the current IAAF ruling is simply discriminatory on its face. Furthermore, it specifically targeted one individual athlete. The IAAF will most definitely lose the case in court. They should have made the rule apply to "ALL" track and field events. Would have been a much better argument to stand on. With the current scenario, its most likely that Caster will get to complete her career or at least thru 2020 Olys with her natural hormone levels. Eventually the IAAF will realize the error and we will get a complete ban. Until then simply enjoy the performances of all the women.

I agree. Although I believe that the IAAF had research done which showed that high testosterone had a bigger advantage in the 400 to mile events. I still think they should have ruled there is an advantage from the 60m to the 3000m to make the ruling appear a bit more fair.

I wonder how long it is before the IAAF just refuses to have the case heard by CAS. It's my understanding that both parties have to agree to submit the dispute to CAS, which then gives a CAS ruling legal power.

The elite women runners who are pissed need to do something - clearly if you look at the conclusion of the womens Rio 800 final, there are some upset women. Since I'm a male, there's not a dam thing I can do to help you except voice my displeasure. You elite women who are actually pissed at this imposture need to do something - maybe line up for the 800 if Caster's in the race and when the gun goes off step off the track and let Caster run alone - which Caster does anyway at 1:55 and everyone else runs 2:00 flat to 2:07- but you got to do something (in a peaceful manner) if you want this showboating imposture out of your races. If you pissed off elite 800 women are not willing to do anything and upset the apple cart, well don't cry when Caster blows you away in races it's that simple. I'm on your side, but you got to take action.

Further to my previous post, CAS is based in Switzerland so I'm sure they could rule that Semenya cannot be excluded from IAAF events held in Switzerland, but I don't see how they have the power to say she can compete in the USA.

I'm no legal expert so someone who knows more please chime in here.

This is very simple. If you have testicles, whether internal or external, you can't compete with women unless you have them removed OR your T is lowered to at least the upper limit of what would be considered "female", based on scientific consensus. There is huge biologic variability in both males and females as a gender class, which dictates ones athletic potential and performance. Someone who is both biological male as well as female should thus not be competing in the female category unless the above criteria are met. While obviously this has garnered a lot of discussion on both sides of the issue with CAS, the situation in CT is much more cut and dried.

OLD SMTC SOB wrote:

This is very simple. If you have testicles, whether internal or external, you can't compete with women unless you have them removed OR your T is lowered to at least the upper limit of what would be considered "female", based on scientific consensus. There is huge biologic variability in both males and females as a gender class, which dictates ones athletic potential and performance. Someone who is both biological male as well as female should thus not be competing in the female category unless the above criteria are met. While obviously this has garnered a lot of discussion on both sides of the issue with CAS, the situation in CT is much more cut and dried.

Spot on. The real question is "why does she get to classify herself as a female in the first place?". How did she get in this category? Because she has a vagina instead of a penis? Is that what makes a female a female? What about her makes her claim of being "female" legitimate? Cannot any guy surgically remove their penis and call themselves a girl? Is it somehow any different if you are born with a missing penis?

Its very complicated, as you might imagine. Seems to me that CAS probably has more female than male genetics, and may well have ended up much more "feminine", not having been subjected to a lifetime of high testosterone. Irrespective of what gender group CAS identifies as, however, the testicles are the deal breaker. Mitigate them, or get rid of them. Or don't compete as a female.

I'd be interested to hear further from all the people (if there really isn't just one poster) posting all this anti-Semenya drivel

1. Did you vote for Trump

2. Are you pro splitting up children from their parents and locking them even at toddler age in cages?

I thought as much.

intenserunner wrote:

[quote]OLD SMTC SOB wrote:

Spot on. The real question is "why does she get to classify herself as a female in the first place?". How did she get in this category? Because she has a vagina instead of a penis? Is that what makes a female a female? What about her makes her claim of being "female" legitimate? Cannot any guy surgically remove their penis and call themselves a girl? Is it somehow any different if you are born with a missing penis?

Some great comments on this thread -- none by Let's Run, though. I find the LR editorial stance on this issue quite simplistic and, frankly, sophomoric. They are usually better than this, but on this one LR you are sadly lacking.

"baseball2" made a great point: What if a man is born with a substantial physical advantage over all other men, to the point were he is almost inhuman? Would he be allowed to compete? YES. That is pretty much the world class.

"acebond" made a great comment on the legal wrongheadedness of the recent IAAF rule-making. This challenge by Semenya will win -- and rightly so. The IAAF is looking to make this problem go away with a Draconian, unfair rule that is an easy way out. Unfortunately the IAAF cannot see that it has a great opportunity here to make history in modern sport -- but rather it would like to try and turn the clock back to the days when intersex people lived in shame and isolation. "Thanks" IAAF and Seb Coe for not serving your constituents -- and that would be all who want to enjoy Athletics/T&F. And it's interesting in that IAAF declares as a deliverable that it's in favour of sport for all, and inclusion! :(

Re, the quote above from intenserunner, in the case of those surgically altering themselves to cross into the current "Women's" category, then it's easy to monitor that. Conversely, Semenya is (rightly) claiming she should be able to compete as she was born and identifies. Nobody should have to be subjected to life-altering chemical interventions (I would argue that consequent mental health problems would arise) in order to compete as one socially identifies. (on that point, we cannot, cannot take sport out of society as some sort bubble or incubator -- sport and society has, is, and will continue to be intimately intertwined)

In the case of someone born without a penis, and proceeded to tend toward the traditional societal label of girl/woman, then using our current binaryism, they would compete on that side of the (traditional) divider. And this individual and individuals such as Caster could compete until society pointed out that a review of categorization is necessary -- and that is where we sit at present.

Comprehensive stakeholder consultations to consider additional competition categories should be the next step in this process -- not the preservation of traditional categories through the use of inhumane chemical alteration, as the IAAF is currently seeking.

LetsRun.com wrote:

Law firm Norton Rose Fulbright said in a statement that the legal challenge would be filed on Monday at the CAS in Lausanne.

"Ms Semenya, like all athletes, is entitled to compete the way she was born without being obliged to alter her body by any medical means," Norton Rose Fulbright said.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/athletics-south-africas-semenya-challenge-iaaf-female-classification-105306953--spt.html?src=rss

I don't meet all the requirements physically to compete with other men at an elite level. Should special rules be in place so I can?

C/M Runner wrote:

Personally, I'm glad she's protesting. While I do not agree that the playing field is fair, I think she should protest and try to fight it, regardless of how the outcome turns out for her. I would lose more respect if she took the ruling and then complained about "that's not fair!" later when she's competing WITHOUT attempting to fight it. I understand her view point.

I think this case opens up a big can of worms. I'm really curious on how it will end up and how the sport will change as a result.

i agree. if i was her, i'd do the same.

there's basically no choice for her on this one, which is tough.

this is a very complicated matter when you start thinking through all of the details.

It's not that simple though, the possession of testicles in itself doesn't necessarily offer a performance enhancing effect. There are many men who don't have male level testosterone levels due to many factors. Semenya's supposed internal testicles would also be nothing like the pair on a man, if she even has a pair.

Testosterone levels is something that could potentially be a cut and dry metric to use, but the IAAF tried that but didn't have the evidence to prove that the level they set has any basis behind it other than just a random decision. They were unable to prove scientifically that testosterone provides an unfair advantage to women in Caster Semenya's situation.

If it was so simple then their evidence would have stood up to scrutiny by science and the courts.

Now they have gone and had some research done and the findings have resulted in this latest ban. If their evidence this time is good then maybe the ban will be upheld

It seems that everyone wants to have separate male and female categories in sport, but no one is comfortable answering the question of where to draw the line.

Many on here may immediately jump to blood serum hormone levels, but then I will ask where do we draw the cutoff? Maybe a certain level of testosterone ns one person has a drastically different effect in another. Genes are complicated, and interact in unpredictable ways. If a person has half the testosterone receptors in their muscle cells as their peer, they may have a much lower response to the same amount of testosterone in the blood.

I would no be surprised at all if there are many women in track and field who compete without scrutiny who also have abnormally elevated levels of testosterone in their blood, but simply look more feminine than Semenya. Do we need to start regularly testing all female elite athletes to make sure they're not producing too much T? Or do we only test them if they don't pass the eye test? The latter is what LetsRun seems to want, but this is ultimately prone to racism and sexism. LetsRun views black athletes like Semenya and Niyonsaba as more masculine while torqued Nordic ladies like Dafne Schippers get off scot free.

This is not an easy issue, and the solution is not as simple as T blood tests.

But they are still competing in their own gender class with their long wingspan or height.

OLD SMTC SOB wrote:

Its very complicated, as you might imagine. Seems to me that CAS probably has more female than male genetics, and may well have ended up much more "feminine", not having been subjected to a lifetime of high testosterone. Irrespective of what gender group CAS identifies as, however, the testicles are the deal breaker. Mitigate them, or get rid of them. Or don't compete as a female.

How is it determined that someone is more "feminine" and deserves to compete in the female category without any hormone therapy? CAS has 3 times the female testosterone level - higher than many males.