Why is front running more respected that "sit and wait" running?

Von Hayek wrote:

Rx7 wrote:

Ask any racer, any real racer. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning.

Pre wouldn't agree with that sentiment.

Right. That’s why he had so many Olympic medals.

ChadBrad wrote:

Von Hayek wrote:

Pre wouldn't agree with that sentiment.

Right. That’s why he had so many Olympic medals.

That was Pre's weakness.

He could have run for bronze in the 1972 OG 5000m but he went all out for gold. That is his approach to running.

Rui Silva for example ran at the back in the 2004 OG 1500m and 2005 WC 1500m. He ended up winning 2 bronzes but was no where near to winning the race.

Race for wins or race for medals? There is no right or wrong at the end of the day.

Awsi Dooger wrote:

Stretch runners are monumentally stupid. That about covers it. They learned a style that succeeds at lower level, and are moronic enough to continue to apply it against elite opponents.

No chance. Or next to no chance. The exceptions are basically meaningless. The higher up you go the less chance for late rallies to succeed. Those frontrunners are class and aren't going to stop.

American male middle distance running has basically been a procession of one idiot after another. Apparently they all watched a video of Dave Wottle and somehow believed it should be emulated instead of tossed as an outlier.

Occasional recent outliers like Clayton Murphy mean nothing as well.

The coaching is incompetent. Otherwise it would never be allowed to happen.

Alan Webb's surge with 700m was one of the worst tactical moves ever. 12.3 secs for 100m down the back stretch!!!

He should have learnt from Jurgen Straub's run in the 1980 OG 1500m where Straub gradually increased the pace with 700m to go.

^ 700m to go***

Von Hayek wrote:

ChadBrad wrote:

Right. That’s why he had so many Olympic medals.

That was Pre's weakness.

He could have run for bronze in the 1972 OG 5000m but he went all out for gold. That is his approach to running.

Rui Silva for example ran at the back in the 2004 OG 1500m and 2005 WC 1500m. He ended up winning 2 bronzes but was no where near to winning the race.

Race for wins or race for medals? There is no right or wrong at the end of the day.

What the hell are you talking about? Just because you try to win doesn't mean the other option is finish off the podium, or if you finish 3rd you weren't trying to win. Plenty of people run intelligent races and finish second because they just weren't quite good enough. The other guys are getting paid too.

get your Talladega Nights nonsense out of here.

ChadBrad wrote:

Von Hayek wrote:

That was Pre's weakness.

He could have run for bronze in the 1972 OG 5000m but he went all out for gold. That is his approach to running.

Rui Silva for example ran at the back in the 2004 OG 1500m and 2005 WC 1500m. He ended up winning 2 bronzes but was no where near to winning the race.

Race for wins or race for medals? There is no right or wrong at the end of the day.

What the hell are you talking about? Just because you try to win doesn't mean the other option is finish off the podium, or if you finish 3rd you weren't trying to win. Plenty of people run intelligent races and finish second because they just weren't quite good enough. The other guys are getting paid too.

get your Talladega Nights nonsense out of here.

Calm your farm dear.

It's all about context. The example I used with Rui Silva, it is obvious he never ran to win but ran to medal.

I never said finishing 3rd always meant you weren't trying to win.

Some runners are smart enough to realise they are not good enough to win, so they race for the minor medals.

Von Hayek wrote:

How come everyone likes a front runner but a sit and wait runner is "chicken s***" according to Prefontaine?

They arrogantly believe they know everything. This pretence of knowledge is a fatal conceit.

F August wrote:

Von Hayek wrote:

How come everyone likes a front runner but a sit and wait runner is "chicken s***" according to Prefontaine?

They arrogantly believe they know everything. This pretence of knowledge is a fatal conceit.

Shortly before the Olympic final, Pre told Jim McKay of ABC sports that he was going to try to turn it into "a pure guts race because if it is a pure guts race, I'm the only one that can win".

It didn't quite work out that way, I reckon. But Pre did lay it all out there.

Love you, Pre. RIP.

sky wrote:

F August wrote:

They arrogantly believe they know everything. This pretence of knowledge is a fatal conceit.

Shortly before the Olympic final, Pre told Jim McKay of ABC sports that he was going to try to turn it into "a pure guts race because if it is a pure guts race, I'm the only one that can win".

It didn't quite work out that way, I reckon. But Pre did lay it all out there.

Love you, Pre. RIP.

Viren was too smart and too good.

Von Hayek wrote:

sky wrote:

Shortly before the Olympic final, Pre told Jim McKay of ABC sports that he was going to try to turn it into "a pure guts race because if it is a pure guts race, I'm the only one that can win".

It didn't quite work out that way, I reckon. But Pre did lay it all out there.

Love you, Pre. RIP.

Viren was too smart and too good.

In this 5,000 final, Viren ran close to the curb on the bends throughout, except on lap 9 to catch a surging Prefontaine. Thus in the whole race he ran only one bend in lane 2. All his other overtaking was done on the straights. This means that Viren probably ran as little as 10m extra in the whole race. Prefontaine, who was probably the most extravagant of the main contenders, never ran a bend on the curb until 8.5 laps had been run. I calculate that he ran 7 bends on the curb, 10 bends on the outside of lane 1 (with someone inside him) and 8 bends in lane 2. That would mean he ran 99.7 meters extra. Thus, factoring in Viren’s extra 10m, Prefontaine ran 89.7 meters more than Viren—a very significant amount. Thus it’s fair to conclude that one of Viren’s most effective racing tactics was to run on the curb whenever possible. Brendan Foster showed awareness of this aspect of racing when he talked about this race: “[Viren] ran 500m for the last 500; we ran 508m or something like that in the second lane coming round the bend.” (Athletics Weekly, Oct. 23, 1976)

What, really?

Then why is Mo Farah's "sit and wait" running idolized worldwide?

And Bekele's kick, and Haile Geb's kick?

FlyingFast wrote:

What, really?

Then why is Mo Farah's "sit and wait" running idolized worldwide?

And Bekele's kick, and Haile Geb's kick?

Who other than running geeks idolizes those guys?

@Flying wrote:Who other than running geeks idolizes those guys?

Who other than running geeks knows who the heck Mo Farah is? Or what "sit and wait" running even is?

Who but running geeks even thinks about front running vs. sit and kick?

It basically boils down to who is successful. If one can afford to front run one can really outclass a field which is impressive. But it is very rare if the field is on a high level and occurs more frequently in X country and road running. Or obviously on occasion when someone really is way better than the rest.

But this is only rarely possible because few people are so strong so most people have to use a combined strategy, unless they can be fairly certain that they have the best kick and also a good position. So they want a good pace to shake off some of the fast finishers or they will try an extended acceleration for the last 800 or even the last 2-3000 in a 5k or 10k race.

Finally, there are the poor finishers (like Radcliffe in her earlier track career) who have no choice but to try to make the race fairly fast early on because they will otherwise lose to faster athletes. Again, this is hard and not often successful unless one is clearly superior to most of the rest.

Awsi Dooger wrote:

Stretch runners are monumentally stupid. That about covers it. They learned a style that succeeds at lower level, and are moronic enough to continue to apply it against elite opponents.

No chance. Or next to no chance. The exceptions are basically meaningless. The higher up you go the less chance for late rallies to succeed. Those frontrunners are class and aren't going to stop.

American male middle distance running has basically been a procession of one idiot after another. Apparently they all watched a video of Dave Wottle and somehow believed it should be emulated instead of tossed as an outlier.

Occasional recent outliers like Clayton Murphy mean nothing as well.

The coaching is incompetent. Otherwise it would never be allowed to happen.

They should have a time trial race over 1500m.

Lets see who is the best runner against the clock.

Von Hayek wrote:

How come everyone likes a front runner but a sit and wait runner is "chicken s***" according to Prefontaine?

Most people prefer attacking football over defensive football.

All these answers are from fan's perspectives. What about respect from runners in a race? There, I think it totally shifts. Everyone is thinking "sucker" about the front runner, and worried more about the other kickers.

sky wrote:

3hr-marathoner wrote:

I believe Dellinger/Bowerman's race plan was for Pre to move to the front and start rachetting down the pace with 3-laps to go but the early pace was so slow that Pre went a lap early. That decision probably cost him the race.

Wrong again, bud. Pre stated that he was going to ratchet it up in the last mile, run it in 4 minutes, and waste everybody.

A mile would have been over 4 laps on that track.

And no fricking way Pre beats Viren that day. Viren ran a controlled, intelligent race and easily disposed of Pre in that final lap.

As Ian Stewart said "Prefontaine was saying that he was the one that could run the last mile under four minutes...I knew I could, but I knew three or four others in the race could too.."

With a lack of international experience, Prefontaine vastly over-estimate where he stood in the world scene. It's very unlikely he was beating Viren that day, but Prefontaine did not run a very smart race, with the multiple surges.

Stewart made the mistake of thinking Emil Puttemans was the danger and drifted back with him prior to the bell, leaving himself too much to do.

Prefontaine may well have been good at "extraction" getting the most out of himself, compared to the collegiate athletes he was racing, but if he thought he was "tougher" than guys like Stewart and Viren, he must have been deluded.

Front-running might have been more effective 30 or 40 years ago, when a guy like Brendan Foster could break away from a field with a really hard middle lap, but then there were really generally only a couple of guys with a really serious chance. These days most championship fields are so close in terms of ability all early front-running does is to give your opponents a tow. I wonder how many Olympic and World Championships Mo Farah would have won with Ron Clarke or Dave Bedford style tactics?

Sitting and waiting is nearly the same as jogging and sprinting. With Farah, it was nearly always an honest fast race the last 700m to 900m. Look at Pac12 men 5000m final a few weeks ago. That was a jog and sprint.