Daniels' Running Formula - What's missing in the marathon plans?

In the podcast, Magness stresses that when training for the marathon, a big part of it is training the mentality to hold pace for that long. Training physiological systems is only one part of it, he claims, and that makes sense to me.

Yeah, I listened to about 2/3 of it and kind of skipped through the last part - there wasn't anything definitive as far as I could tell.

At this point, I don't think I'm going to change anything - but will keep the possibility open. It feels to me as though I'm touching on all the things I need to in my training - the only thing that bothers me is that seemingly unknown factor regarding the carb vs fat burning. The problem is that one thing could be everything.

I have to shade toward thinking that the 8% of running I'm doing each week isn't enough to shift the balance to an excessive amount of carb burning at MP on race day. While at the same time, that 8% of work will continue to slowly increase the distance between my LT and MP, so that MP will feel that much easier 12+ weeks from now.

The marathon specific approach would definitely say focus on marathon pace stuff within 8 weeks, again as during that phase you are not improving your fitness, you are simply trying to make current fitness adapted to marathon specific demands.

With that being said, few programs have only MP pace during the last eight weeks. You honestly have me thinking about the MP -10 issue though. In my mind that is very marathon specific and might be more fitting than true LT work.

Lots of people run fast doing work other than MP during specific phase. In fact a lot of traditional programs have a VO2 block sharpening phase just before race time. I do believe that type of thinking is being phased out, though.

Agree that mental conditioning is a valid basis for doing certain workouts.

Daniels does prescribe three marathon paced runs of 13 to 15 miles for this purpose.

Daniels also has some other workouts in his plan that will mentally prepare you for the late stages of the marathon, including my favorite and most loathed: 2 miles easy, 4 x 1 mile at tempo with 1:00 rest, 8-10 miles easy, 15-20 minutes at tempo effort, cool down. Not a marathon paced run, but there is something about starting a tempo effort about 16 miles into a run that makes you mentally ready for the pain that comes at 20. I would note that I say that the back end of that workout is at tempo "effort" because I tend to find that it is often slower than tempo pace, and occasionally approaches marathon pace because you're already so deep into the workout.

All this leaves me wondering. They don't like LT or MP (simplifying a little here), what do they like?

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere that one of Canova's go-to workouts was 20 with 10 at MP. A lot of different ways to come at this, no doubt.

steve does like MP work, but Jon feels like it's a junk zone and does a lot more work at faster than MP

I took a look at your page - interesting. I was paying $75 per month with Hansons last year (had eight months worth of coaching). It was all via e-mail (it was $175 per month if you wanted to do it by phone also). I couldn't even call my coach up after last year's marathon and run through the race with her. She did a good job and had a lot of energy for the e-mail part but without ever talking on the phone, it can't help but make things a little impersonal, which of course isn't a plus.

Even though I considered last year's race a fail (even though it was a PR), I learned a lot last year and am glad I did it.

BLtheKid, plain, Smoove -- great discussion here. Lots of food for thought as I ponder my next marathon plan.

BLtheKid -- you and I are similar age and pace range. At 57, I returned to marathoning after a 13-year hiatus. A year later, I saw significant improvement with a more structured plan that emphasized LT-pace workouts. Usually once every nine days I would run one of just three different LT workouts: 3 x 2 mi w/2min recovery, 4-mile threshold run, or 5-mile threshold run. Also, just once, a one-hour run at LT pace (actually a 15K race). No targeted MP at all, although long runs (18-22 miles) and medium-long runs (12-16 miles) were progressions or included faster portions that approached marathon pace.

I was happy with the results, but I'm looking at other approaches now. I'm not sure what to think regarding how various training paces impact fueling on race day. Or how that knowledge might inform my training. Lots still to learn.

It's a hard balance to strike for coaches. I don't think you'll find too many groups more qualified than the Hansons.

Smoove wrote:

Agree that mental conditioning is a valid basis for doing certain workouts.

Daniels does prescribe three marathon paced runs of 13 to 15 miles for this purpose.

Daniels also has some other workouts in his plan that will mentally prepare you for the late stages of the marathon, including my favorite and most loathed: 2 miles easy, 4 x 1 mile at tempo with 1:00 rest, 8-10 miles easy, 15-20 minutes at tempo effort, cool down. Not a marathon paced run, but there is something about starting a tempo effort about 16 miles into a run that makes you mentally ready for the pain that comes at 20. I would note that I say that the back end of that workout is at tempo "effort" because I tend to find that it is often slower than tempo pace, and occasionally approaches marathon pace because you're already so deep into the workout.

My feeling on hitting the paces in that workout:

If I couldn't hit the pace during the last T segment I ran something too hard. Usually the culprit was the easy 8-10 which can be hard to slow down enough for after the early fast running. I usually had trouble getting up to speed during the last T segment, but within 2 or 3 min I could get there and maintain it. However, it felt like race pace during the last 10k of the marathon.

minute to win it wrote:

I would also argue that there is room between M pace and easy pace where a tempo run is called for. Some people might call this "uptempo" but I don't believe there is anything in Daniels to support it.

My M pace is 06:48

My T pace is 06:20

So, my uptempo is 06:34?! What would I benefit from? Why not go M or go T? Indeed, on a bad day my T may be uptempo...

Your point is nonsense.

Nonsense... wrote:

My M pace is 06:48

My T pace is 06:20

So, my uptempo is 06:34?! What would I benefit from? Why not go M or go T? Indeed, on a bad day my T may be uptempo...

Your point is nonsense.

I don't think you read my statement very carefully. Between M pace and EASY pace.

Also, what do guys think about Kipchoge's 40K runs at slightly slower than MP?

The 40km runs are incredibly useful, specific, and in my opinion a big piece of what is missing in traditional Daniels' training.

It's support on the slower side of marathon pace, as was mentioned above. It may not be improving a lab metric in the most efficient manor, bu it's teaching the body to run very close to marathon effort for a long time with similar psychological and physical demands.

At what percentage of MP are those 40k runs run?

Smoove wrote:

At what percentage of MP are those 40k runs run?

In his lead-up to Berlin, Kipchoge ran a few 40 km runs in 2:13, 2:15, and 2:26

That works out to 5:21, 5:25, and 5:52 pace respectively. They were run on very hilly and muddy courses.

I don't think you can really tie a percentage to those runs on the dirt roads of Kenya, but I know prescriptions are pretty aggressive.

30k @ 100

35k @ 97

40k @ 90-96

But Kipchoge is a Sang coached athlete, but similar ideas.

I am trying to decide which of those makes me want to puke the least.

In any event, those don't seem like viable workouts for most people who are not Eliud Kipchoge (obviously, the mortals among us can simply scale them back some and make them more applicable to us while still applying the underlying principles and obtaining the desired benefit).

Smoove wrote:

I am trying to decide which of those makes me want to puke the least.

In any event, those don't seem like viable workouts for most people who are not Eliud Kipchoge (obviously, the mortals among us can simply scale them back some and make them more applicable to us while still applying the underlying principles and obtaining the desired benefit).

What if you did them by time instead of distance? Say, go for a 2 hr run at 90% of marathon pace? Or a 90 minute run at 97% of marathon pace? I would think those would be more manageable, I just don't know if you miss out on the point of the workout if you end up doing so much less distance than Kipchoge.