He ran the final lap in 64-65 seconds. I think that if you use that pace at the end of Lindgren's 6 miler, you end up with something very close to 28:15. By the way, who was older by birthdate when the accomplishment occured. I believe that Lindgren was already 19, and Rupp was still 18 when it happened.
I can't believe anyone hasn't yet identified
this obvious fact....
Rupp was 26:04 at 23 laps...correct?
His last lap in the "10k was 64 seconds...correct?
That would make 27:10 at 6 miles...wouldn't it?
Because the 6 mile is one lap less then 10k...
he "may have" run the last lap a little quicker!!!
Definitely not slower then his last lap in a 25 lap
race!!!
That easily gives him the American 6 mile record
as well...no dute abute it!!!
Q
6 miles = 9656.064 meters
6 miles =/= 9600.000 meters
If Lindgren had to run the extra 344m they would have been the slowest 344m that he ran in the race. You need to know what his slowest lap was and then calculate the time for the 344m based on that. That will give you an upper bound on what he could have done for 10km ie the 344m would likely be at a slightly slower pace than the slowest lap he ran during the race.
Get over it.
Conversions are just fine, I don't think there's anything wrong with them, not for NCAA qualifying and not for records. The only problem is that conversions are only estimates, which is a problem in cases like this where the two times are very close. 28:15 for Rupp and 28:10c for Lindgren? Too close to use estimates.
Let's just list it is
Jr. 10,000 record
Gerry Lindgren 28:10c (27:11)
Galen Rupp 28:15
and for christsakes, it's the Junior record, based around an arbitrary birthdate cutoff, not something that matters.
isn't it a tad deceiving to compare differences between 3200/2mile with the difference between 6 miles and 10 kilometers?
Are you really that stupid??
qucassidy wrote:
I can't believe anyone hasn't yet identified
this obvious fact....
Rupp was 26:04 at 23 laps...correct?
His last lap in the "10k was 64 seconds...correct?
That would make 27:10 at 6 miles...wouldn't it?
Because the 6 mile is one lap less then 10k...
he "may have" run the last lap a little quicker!!!
Definitely not slower then his last lap in a 25 lap
race!!!
That easily gives him the American 6 mile record
as well...no dute abute it!!!
Q
okay, first of all Lindgren is a thing of the past. He's gone. He never achieved much in his career other than beat Pre at NCAAs. Rupp is new. He is the future. Him and Ritz, and Webb are gonna be the ones to determine whether American running is a legacy or a joke
forget about the past and focus on the future.
Oh, I agree, you can't convert from one distance to another, even another very close distance, by just saying they would maintain pace - for all I know Lindgren was in the hole and had to kick with all his heart to get down to that time with a big last lap. All you can really do is argue that Lingren's was a comparable performance and will be sadly eclipsed because of the obsolete distance.
Lindgren's last lap was 57.9.
Track Newsletter, Vol. 4, No. 19:
10,000: 1. Rupp (Or) 28:15.52 AJR (old AJR 28:32.7 Chapa [InHS] '76)(9, x AmC; 2, 2 AJ--inferior to Lindgren 6M time)
T&FN has it both ways. An American Junior record, but #2 on the American Junior list.
I wouldn't say that Lindgren never did anything; he ranked in the world's top ten six times. No American has done that in two decades or more.
Galen Rupp's triumphant debut at the Twilight Meet in Eugene last week has the running world excited - and why not? The 19 year old neo-Duck knocked 15 seconds off Rudy Chapa's 10k AJR set in 1976, ran an incredible negative split, and threw off a sub 14:00 final 5k in a phenomenal solo flight finish.
But... as promising as this run was and as magnificent an accomplishment as it is, Rupp will have to run even faster in the Pac 10 Championships later this month in Eugene to be the greatest American Junior runner at this distance. Gerry Lindgren's 27:11.6 6 mile AJR set at the AAU Nationals in 1965 in San Diego is still the high bar standard for 10k and 6 miles both in terms of raw times and in terms of comparative accomplishment.
Raw times? Rupp's 28:15 translates to ~ 27:18 6 mile on conversion. Forgive me for thinking that they probably clocked this at Hayward Field and neglected it in the press release because it was not a better mark than Lindgren's run 40 years ago.
Comparative accomplishment? Rupp ran at twilight. Lindgren ran in the heat of the day (the Snell-Ryun match race was the feature in San Diego and run in the cool of evening). Rupp ran at Hayward Field in front of an adoring audience. Lindgren was running despite an NCAA ban on AAU competition and thought that a car back firing during the race was someone shooting at him (if you think this is indicative of Lindgren's fragile mental condition, read reports of the times...). Rupp's race was rabbitted. Lindgren was in a take-no-prisoners war with Billy Mills. Rupp enjoys the finest coaching, facilities, and support of any runner his age in history. Lindgren because of NCAA rules of the time had effectively "taken the year off" from competition because he was ineligible to run as a freshman at WSU. Rupp ran his race on the fastest running surface in the world. The "new synthetic" San Diego track was so hard that Mills said he had blood blisters in his feet after three miles. Shoes? Only runners of the time can tell you the difference between Nike track spikes now and Dassler Brothers spikes of forty years ago.
Yet Lindgren not only ran faster than Rupp in absolute terms, he broke the standing 6 mile WORLD record and the 10k mark set by Ron Clarke on conversion. That they didn't actually run a 10k was not Lindgren or Mills' fault. Mills told me that Col. Don Hull the meet organizer in San Diego had promised him that there would be a 10k finish line and clock in his attempt to be the first man under 28:00 for that distance. Hall balked the day of the event which almost caused Mills to withdraw except for the remarkable pressure Lindgren had endured to come to San Diego despite the NCAA ban. (Lindgren does not remember this; he was invited to the AAU meet, he says, and he accepted in order to qualify for the US/USSR meet in Kiev that year - and then was put under siege by the NCAA.)
Galen Rupp is a great runner and I will be cheering for him to beat Lindgren's 6mile/10k on conversion real AJR in the months he has left as a Junior Runner. Gerry Lindgren, too, is a man of many failings and a tortured personal history that many people cannot applaud as a runner because they cannot see past the man.
But, let's face facts. Lindgren's Junior records in absolute and comparative terms dwarf Rupp's accomplishments to date. This should not make one think less of Rupp and his coaches. It should only clarify the enormity of Lindgren's accomplishments 40 years ago. Rupp may very well win a bunch of NCAA crowns and set records. Until he does, though, Lindgren's 11 of a possible 12 NCAA national titles, world record at 6 miles, and American records in the 3 mile, 5k, and 6 miles are the collegiate and Junior gold standard. I doubt very much we'll ever see a runner of his merits again.
E. Garry Hill at T&FNews pulled this out of his files to describe what Lindgren's run in San Diego meant in the war between the NCAA & AAU:
Cordner Nelson wrote in the next issue of the magazine, >
Hill asks in an aside about the observation that Lindgren was "on his way to becoming the greatest runner in the history of the world" that we should "consider that statement with Lindgren's place in history relative to Rupp." Yes, indeed.
In the year that Rupp has "broken" two of Lindgren's marks (at least in the popular mind, if his races at 5k as a HS runner and as a Junior runner at 10k really do not hold up to anything but time comparisons), Rupp could actually meet the man himself in Eugene the weekend of the Pre Classic.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=859311
Here's hoping Salazar or UO or Nike have the sense of history and respect to make such a meeting happen.
The Nelson quotation that didn't make the post above reads:
Cordner Nelson wrote in the next issue of the magazine, "the rich and powerful NCAA cracked down on individual athletes with all the conscienseless force of the Nazis taking reprisals against innocent hostages. Chief target in this gang war was a little, helpless-looking freshman who happens to be on his way to becoming the greatest runner in the history of the world. For two weeks, Gerry Lindgren was hounded by adults of influence. Finally, because he has the courage and patriotism of a George Washington or a Nathan Hale, little Gerry flew to San Diego, hid out until meet time, and broke a World Record."
I spoke with Tracy Walters, Lindgren's HS coach, this afternoon and he told me the story of Gerry's coming to his house the night before flying to San Diego. He had been invited to run at the AAU meet and had accepted to qualify for the US team that would run against the Soviets in Kiev. He then learned from the NCAA, his coach, the WSU President, and more than 300 callers (one threatrening to burn down his parents' house because of possible sanctions against WSU) that there was a NCAA "boycott" (enforced ban on participation) of AAU meets.
Lindgren asked Walters what he should do but Walters said the decision had to be Gerry's. Gerry said then what he did before Congress after returning from Europe, that it didn't seem right to him that "some adults running prganizations could get in a quarrel and all the victims were athletes. It just seems wrong that I have to choose between representing my country and my college."
Lindgren wrote me last night in answer to my question about whether he intended to "fight the power structure" when he went to San Diego: "I did not intend to break the NCAA ban. I didn't even KNOW there was a ban. Nobody told me until I had already committed to run in the meet. After the pressure started I was scared out of my wits! But I had to run. To back down would cause the War to continue another 50 years."
Another Walters gem: He said he drove Lindgren to the "Spokane International" airport the next day ("three quanset huts and the tarmac") to put him on the plane to California. After they said goodbye and Lindgren was heading out the gate, Walters said, "Hey, Gerry, one more thing..." Lindgren turned and said, "Yeah, coach, I know; 'Run like hell.' I will."
Boy, did he ever.
Fulltone Echoplex wrote:
Does anyone know what Lindgren's last lap was?
58 seconds.
dietrick wrote:
okay, first of all Lindgren is a thing of the past. He's gone. He never achieved much in his career other than beat Pre at NCAAs.
Ummm.... except that he had the World Record in the 6-mile when he was a teenager, which was superior to the current 10,000 Record....AND....he was the closest an American ever came to the World Record in the 3-mile/5000m. He ran 12:53.0 at age 20, only 0.6 seconds off the World Record, which was definitely superior to the current 5,000 Record of 13:24.
Get your head out of you a**.
wtf wrote:
Are you really that stupid??
qucassidy wrote:I can't believe anyone hasn't yet identified
this obvious fact....
Rupp was 26:04 at 23 laps...correct?
His last lap in the "10k was 64 seconds...correct?
That would make 27:10 at 6 miles...wouldn't it?
Because the 6 mile is one lap less then 10k...
he "may have" run the last lap a little quicker!!!
Definitely not slower then his last lap in a 25 lap
race!!!
That easily gives him the American 6 mile record
as well...no dute abute it!!!
Q
No, the question is... are YOU really that stupid.... to not catch the sarcasm in his post.
NO! I ran 27:11.6 as a freshman in college. I was already 19 years old. That was the year the NCAA boycotted the AAU national championships and I was under tremendous pressure to NOT run. A sprained ankle didn't help either. When I was warming up for the race, Billy Mills came over to me with his usual exuberance and I didn't want him to see I was limping and could hardly run. So I told him I was going for the world record just to get him to go away, which he did.
At the starting line there was Billy again as exuberant as ever. "Hey Gerry! I'll help you!" We determined that I would lead for two laps and then Billy would lead two. I figured at least I could get away from the pack and then limp in second. I led the first two laps and moved out to lane two so Billy could move up on the inside. When it was My turn to lead again Billy not only refused me the inside path tolane one he picked up the pace as I tried to get around on the outside. I had to run my two laps in lane 2. That was how the race went through the first four miles. I was always in lane two when I was trying to lead. I kept looking back at the pack. When the pack got back far enough I was gonna drop off pace. Billy too was thinking he would drop off pace but we both wanted the other guy to drop first. A fun race.
If I didn't run well, I feared the NCAA would make good on the threats they had made in trying to keep me in line. I had to run well. Fear of death is a great motivating factor.
A couple of other things:
1) I am coaching now at Univ of Hawaii at Manoa (Honolulu) and building a super women's program there (the school does not have a men's track or cross country program). I am looking for great high school girls now so if you know of any please have them contact me at the UH web sight.
2) Gerry Lindgren's Book On Running is OUT (finally). Took me over 20 years.
People tell me it is the most inspirational book they have read (blush). A great Christmas present???
3) "A couple of other things" indicates two items so I am out of items already. I could coach you in remedial math if that would help.
GerrytheJogger wrote:
NO! I ran 27:11.6 as a freshman in college. I was already 19 years old.
Gerry, you were a junior as long as you didn't turn 20 by December 31 of that year.
YES, you were a junior. Being a college coach now you should know these things......