George213 wrote:
Tadese seems to have both.
Right, Tadese's values basically imply that he should be able to run a 1:37 marathon. The disclaimer at the end of the article pretty much says what people here are saying, that the basic assumptions of VO2 max/running economy are wrong.
Metallic Mottram wrote:
Hello all. This is a classic buddy to buddy argument, and I need to know what the consensus of LRC is.
So the story goes:
My buddy claims that he knew a guy in high school (decent PB's; 4:18, 9:1x) who took a VO2 max test and scored a whopping 81. Buddy claims he remembers the score exactly, and that there were no apparent errors with the testing equipment. This guy did not go on to run well in college.
My thoughts: Since 81 would, by my research, place this guy among one of the best oxygen processors in the world (Seb Coe scored 77, Lance Armstrong 84, Bill Rodgers 78!) I think that this score is either would have to be an anomaly to at least some degree, since 80+ is truly a world class score. I understand that VO2 isn't necessarily the best representation of high school track ability, but come on, HE SCORED 81?!?!?!
What I am saying: Either my friend got the score wrong (forgot what the actual score was), or this guy never realized his true potential.
Thoughts??? DISCUS
^^*But does it even matter what his score is if he throws the DISCUS?
Oh wait....
You guys say that weight affects VO2 a lot. How would OP being 6’8†affect his max?
Max's VO2 wrote:
VO2 Max doesnt mean anything!
92.5 Greg LeMond, professional cyclist
92.0 Matt Carpenter, Pikes Peak marathon course record holder
91.0 Harri Kirvesniem, Finnish cross country skier
90.0 Bjørn Dæhlie, Norwegian cross country skier
88.0 Miguel Indurain, professional cyclist
87.4 Marius Bakken, Norwegian 5k record holder
85.0 Dave Bedford, 10k world record
85.0 John Ngugi World XC Champion
84.4 Steve Prefontaine,US runner
84.3 "Physiologist in training," 15:12/30:55 runner
84.0 Lance Armstrong, professional cyclist
82.7 Gary Tuttle, US runner
82.0 Kip Keino, Olympic 1500 champion
81.1 Craig Virgin, twice World cross country champ
81.0 Jim Ryun, US miler WR holder
80.1 Steve Scott, US miler 3:47
79.4 "Runningart2004," 15:43 5k runner
78.6 Joan Benoit, 1984 Olympic Marathon Champion
78.5 Bill Rodgers, 2:09:27 marathoner
77.4 Don Kardong, 2:11:15 marathoner
77.0 Sebastian Coe. WR mile, 1500
76.6 John Landy, WR miler
76.0 Alberto Salazar, 2:08:51 marathoner
74.3 Amby Burfoot, US marathoner
74.4 Johnny Halberstadt, 2:11:44 marathoner
74.2 Kenny Moore, US marathoner 2:11:36
73.5 Grete Waitz, Norwegian Marathon runner
73.3 Bruce Fordyce ultramarathoner
73.0 Jeff Galloway, US snake oil salesman
73.0 Buddy Edelen, 2:14:28 world record marathoner (1963)
72.8 Jarmila Krotochvilova,Czech Olympian 400M/800M winner
72.3 Peter Snell, Olympic champion
72.0 Zithulele Sinqe, 2:08:05 marathoner
71.3 Frank Shorter, US Olympic Marathon winner
71.2 Ingrid Kristiansen, ex-Marathon World Record Holder
71.0 Paula Ivan, Russian Olympic 1500M Record Holder
70.3 Willie Mtolo, 2:08:15 marathoner
69.7 Derek Clayton, Australian ex-Marathon World Record holder 2:08:35
67.2 Rosa Mota, Marathon runner
---------------------------------------
Hey...where's 4xTdF champion Chris Froome? Froomey was tested in the lab last yr @ 88.0; right up there with Big Mig. And Froomey had some alien performances over the years. A massive engine in a thin frame (6-1, 145).
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-froomes-physiological-test-data-released/The biggest benefit of VO2 Max Testing is for athletes to put pics of themselves doing a VO2 Max test. They think it makes them look like they are serious athletes.
then post these pics on twitter or instagram
When I was a 4:03 miler I scored an 84. I don't think I'm better than many runners who scored 70. My limitation (embarrassed as I am to admit it) has always been my musculoskeletal system and strength rather than my aerobic ability. My improvement with mileage was highly correlated with mileage (40mpw = 4:20, 50mpw = 4:15, 60mpw = 4:10, 70mpw = 4:05, 80mpw = 4:01) but my body would always break down above 60mpw.
It doesn't mean a whole lot to have a high VO2.
Metallic Mottram wrote:
Hello all. This is a classic buddy to buddy argument, and I need to know what the consensus of LRC is.
So the story goes:
My buddy claims that he knew a guy in high school (decent PB's; 4:18, 9:1x) who took a VO2 max test and scored a whopping 81. Buddy claims he remembers the score exactly, and that there were no apparent errors with the testing equipment. This guy did not go on to run well in college.
My thoughts: Since 81 would, by my research, place this guy among one of the best oxygen processors in the world (Seb Coe scored 77, Lance Armstrong 84, Bill Rodgers 78!) I think that this score is either would have to be an anomaly to at least some degree, since 80+ is truly a world class score. I understand that VO2 isn't necessarily the best representation of high school track ability, but come on, HE SCORED 81?!?!?!
What I am saying: Either my friend got the score wrong (forgot what the actual score was), or this guy never realized his true potential.
Thoughts??? DISCUS
I forgot the exact numbers but Steve Prefontaine's vo2max was significantly higher than Frank Shorter's. Shorter was a more efficient Runner, gifted with a lighter and more evenly balanced body. My point is that mechanical inefficiency could drive the vo2max score up higher.
I've been involved with physiological testing for over 30 years and have probably had 10-15 individuals at 70+. Granted, most individuals were not elite, however, some of them were and I still never saw anyone over 80. If I ever did, I'd want to bring them back and confirm that the analyzer was accurate. A VO2max over 70 is likely in about the top 0.05% of the population if not higher.
I liken the VO2max to the size of the engine. To play and the top you have to have a big engine. 70+ is big but 80+ is huge. A big engine is the ticket to get you in the door. However, in addition to that you must have tremendous economy. The Tadeses of the world have Ferrari engines with VW Jetta economy. Without both you are just a shetland pony. While you might be the fastest shetland pony in the world, you are still never going to run in the derby!
In direct response to the HS 4:18 mile and VO2 of 81. Both of those are exceptional (regardless of what the average LR poster suggests). If you put it in the context of how many boys run in HS and how many of them run 4:18, it is probably in the top 0.05% if not higher.
Sipping Tea wrote:
The biggest benefit of VO2 Max Testing is for athletes to put pics of themselves doing a VO2 Max test. They think it makes them look like they are serious athletes.
Give me a break Sam...YOU think YOU could climb or TT with Froomey? 😅😂ðŸ˜
I'm curious. Has anyone seen data on the VO2 max range of all these 2:03-2:06 Kenyan/Ethiopian marathoners??? Are they consistently in the 80+ category or more spread out like the elite list posted?
my college teammate was 81 or 82 and ran 14:52 and 4:12 mile (college bests)he was a wimp/headcase. physical talent needs a brain to use it and most don't know how.i have a better marathon time and i was a 400m-1500m runner in college. my VO2 was 71 or so. i'm more impressed by my 1:51 and 1:12 HM than his 4:12 milehaha, it's hard to be a great athlete. so many factors
Metallic Mottram wrote:
Hello all. This is a classic buddy to buddy argument, and I need to know what the consensus of LRC is.
So the story goes:
My buddy claims that he knew a guy in high school (decent PB's; 4:18, 9:1x) who took a VO2 max test and scored a whopping 81. Buddy claims he remembers the score exactly, and that there were no apparent errors with the testing equipment. This guy did not go on to run well in college.
My thoughts: Since 81 would, by my research, place this guy among one of the best oxygen processors in the world (Seb Coe scored 77, Lance Armstrong 84, Bill Rodgers 78!) I think that this score is either would have to be an anomaly to at least some degree, since 80+ is truly a world class score. I understand that VO2 isn't necessarily the best representation of high school track ability, but come on, HE SCORED 81?!?!?!
What I am saying: Either my friend got the score wrong (forgot what the actual score was), or this guy never realized his true potential.
Thoughts??? DISCUS
Even the high number guys are delusional.
I ran a 4:03 mile with an 80, it means nothing. OOOOOOK.
Now try it with a 40 like t'ardloper thinks he can.
oregon oldtimer wrote:
I've been involved with physiological testing for over 30 years and have probably had 10-15 individuals at 70+. Granted, most individuals were not elite, however, some of them were and I still never saw anyone over 80. If I ever did, I'd want to bring them back and confirm that the analyzer was accurate. A VO2max over 70 is likely in about the top 0.05% of the population if not higher.
I liken the VO2max to the size of the engine. To play and the top you have to have a big engine. 70+ is big but 80+ is huge. A big engine is the ticket to get you in the door. However, in addition to that you must have tremendous economy. The Tadeses of the world have Ferrari engines with VW Jetta economy. Without both you are just a shetland pony. While you might be the fastest shetland pony in the world, you are still never going to run in the derby!
In direct response to the HS 4:18 mile and VO2 of 81. Both of those are exceptional (regardless of what the average LR poster suggests). If you put it in the context of how many boys run in HS and how many of them run 4:18, it is probably in the top 0.05% if not higher.
top 0.05%? can everyone train to reach above 65?
Max's VO2 wrote:
Beautiful Day wrote:VO2 max isn't everything.
I scored higher than anyone the lab had ever seen when I was in college, and I was toward the back of my team. Not 84, but not 78.
VO2 Max doesnt mean anything!
92.5 Greg LeMond, professional cyclist
92.0 Matt Carpenter, Pikes Peak marathon course record holder
91.0 Harri Kirvesniem, Finnish cross country skier
90.0 Bjørn Dæhlie, Norwegian cross country skier
88.0 Miguel Indurain, professional cyclist
87.4 Marius Bakken, Norwegian 5k record holder
85.0 Dave Bedford, 10k world record
85.0 John Ngugi World XC Champion
84.4 Steve Prefontaine,US runner
84.3 "Physiologist in training," 15:12/30:55 runner
84.0 Lance Armstrong, professional cyclist
82.7 Gary Tuttle, US runner
82.0 Kip Keino, Olympic 1500 champion
82.0 John Walker, Olympic 1500 champion, WR mile,
81.1 Craig Virgin, twice World cross country champ
81.0 Jim Ryun, US miler WR holder
80.1 Steve Scott, US miler 3:47
79.4 "Runningart2004," 15:43 5k runner
78.6 Joan Benoit, 1984 Olympic Marathon Champion
78.5 Bill Rodgers, 2:09:27 marathoner
77.4 Don Kardong, 2:11:15 marathoner
77.0 Sebastian Coe. WR mile, 1500
76.6 John Landy, WR miler
76.0 Alberto Salazar, 2:08:51 marathoner
74.3 Amby Burfoot, US marathoner
74.4 Johnny Halberstadt, 2:11:44 marathoner
74.2 Kenny Moore, US marathoner 2:11:36
73.5 Grete Waitz, Norwegian Marathon runner
73.3 Bruce Fordyce ultramarathoner
73.0 Jeff Galloway, US snake oil salesman
73.0 Buddy Edelen, 2:14:28 world record marathoner (1963)
73.0 David Torrence
72.8 Jarmila Krotochvilova,Czech Olympian 400M/800M winner
72.3 Peter Snell, Olympic champion
72.0 Zithulele Sinqe, 2:08:05 marathoner
71.3 Frank Shorter, US Olympic Marathon winner ↔key
71.2 Ingrid Kristiansen, ex-Marathon World Record Holder
71.0 Paula Ivan, Russian Olympic 1500M Record Holder
70.3 Willie Mtolo, 2:08:15 marathoner
69.7 Derek Clayton, Australian ex-Marathon World Record holder 2:08:35↔ Key
67.2 Rosa Mota, Marathon runner
Science of Running: More on VO2 Max
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/12/fallacy-of-vo2max-and-vo2max.html
A low number certainly means a lot. That's why there is not a single 50 on the above chart.
HardLoper wrote:
George213 wrote:Tadese seems to have both.
Right, Tadese's values basically imply that he should be able to run a 1:37 marathon. The disclaimer at the end of the article pretty much says what people here are saying, that the basic assumptions of VO2 max/running economy are wrong.
The study is obviously flawed. Somewhere they messed it up. Why this became such a big issue that has been brought up again and again is just a mystery.
HardLoper wrote:
800 dude wrote:Right. What's also interesting is how there appears to be an inverse relationship between economy and vo2max, at least for elites:
Now, one might say that if we've already selected elite athletes, then someone with a low VO2max would have to have high economy, which is true, but it's interesting that there are basically no athletes who have both. Maybe relevant genetics have no relation to one another, so it's just incredibly unlikely to be world class in both metrics. But still, it's a big freaking world out there. You'd think there would be some people who have both economy and VO2max. It suggests that there might be something mutually exclusive about the necessary attributes.
Exactly. The original VO2 max hypothesis assumes VO2 max and "running economy" are independent. Yet if someone had a relative VO2 max of 80+ L/min/kg and Salazar's "running economy," their vVO2 max would essentially indicate 11:00 5K ability. Obviously no one close to this exists. Similarly, a study on average athletes taking EPO showed something like a 6% increase in VO2 max but only a 2% increase in running ability. In other words, EPO caused their "running economy" to decrease by 4%, which makes no sense if you think of running economy as mechanical efficiency independent of oxygen uptake and indicates VO2 max is not the driving factor it was assumed to be.
Incorrect conclusion.
A 2% decrease in time may well be a 6% increase in ability, since it takes exponentially more energy requirement for each time saving.
15 minutes may only have twice the speed of a 30 minute 5k, but will have well over twice the oxygen requirement.
John Turtorer wrote:
A low number certainly means a lot. That's why there is not a single 50 on the above chart.
They are either fat or fast twitchers or both.
that's because wrote:
John Turtorer wrote:A low number certainly means a lot. That's why there is not a single 50 on the above chart.
They are either fat or fast twitchers or both.
Cheetahs and racehorses are fast twitch. A racehorse has a VO2 of around 220.