I am in no position to give you advice, having never trained for a marathon myself, but here are a couple threads with what seems like solid advice. Definitely something I plan on trying out when I move up to the marathon. You may or may not have seen them already, but they seem like solid workouts to me.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2487659
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=1718448&thread=1710554
Laughlin wrote:
I am in no position to give you advice, having never trained for a marathon myself, but here are a couple threads with what seems like solid advice. Definitely something I plan on trying out when I move up to the marathon. You may or may not have seen them already, but they seem like solid workouts to me.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2487659http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=1718448&thread=1710554
General advice for anyone (and not a reply to anyone specfically): setting out to do key workouts is good, but you cannot neglect the workouts that scaffold those key days. Put in 30' pick up in the 3rd quarter of a long run, to set up a tempo-long-tempo, for example. Or a 18-10 double before a firm 24 mile long run (or something like a workout pm-20M am combo). Don't just throw 1000m repeats on those in-between days.
For anyone interested in an update. This week:
M - 12.3 / 5
T - 2 mi warm up, 8 x 800 @ 2:30 with 200 jog, 8 x 100m stride, 6mi cool down / 5
W - 22 @ 6:55 avg / 4
R - 11 / 6.1
F - 8.5 warm up, 8 x .75 hill loop with hard uphill, easy flat, hard downhill, recover to start again, 2.7 cool down / 4
S - 14 / 5.2
S - 2.9 warm up, 6 x mile off, mile on:
5:49, 5:11, 5:52, 5:03, 5:52, 5:05, 6:01, 4:58, 5:50, 5:05, 5:55, 4:56.
6.33 cool down / PM Off
Total: 140
Sleep well tonight. Good workout today.
Igy
Just a couple of thoughts having messed up my first couple of shots at sub 2.20 before nailing one and having also run CIM and dnf'd !
You are aiming to run 5.20 per mile but looking at the last week your faster stuff is at around 5 which is at best your threshold pace if not a bit faster and your long run is 6:55. That's quite a range. Given that you have some decent times this summer at the shorter stuff my question is whether you will have shifted your body to burn enough fat at MP to hold the pace for 26 miles? You are going to feel very easy for the first half with your speed. I would be thinking about getting some decent miles in at 5:30 - 5:45 pace to reinforce that fat metabolism.
Equally, make sure that you have a plan to develop those long runs by including faster finishes/segments of MP in the middle etc. If you need to reduce total mileage so that you can handle more specific long runs and more running at MP and just slower than then in my book thats a good trade off.
12 weeks is quite a long time so overdoing it is definitely something to watch out for. The easy weeks before/after your half should help hold you back.
Other thought is that the CIM course is deceptively rolling in the first half. Its worth practicing running 5:10-5:20 on downhill gradients similar to those in the race. They might not be long but they definitely add up.
Hope that helps. Good luck with it.
Adrian
Adrian - I appreciate the advice. I'm trying to work in those moderate runs a bit more to practice with the metabolism side. I did a fasted long run this week and some uptempo long miles as well. The hills are a thing I'm doing 1x per week on a nice loop that can beat up the quads a bit.
For those interested, my week:
M - 11.5 AM / 6 PM
T - AM: 6 warm up, 8/7/6/5/4/3/2/1 min on 1min off. Avg 5:24 for whole fartlek. 4 cool down. PM: 6
W - 22mi fasted run with no gels. Water a few times. 6:47 avg. PM: 4 + gym
R - 12 AM / 6 PM
F - AM: 8mi warm up, 8 x .75 hill loop with hard uphills, easy flat, hard downhill, easy to start again. 4mi cool down. PM: 6
S - 13.5 AM / 4mi with strides
S - 2mi warm up. 20mi @ 5:28 avg. 1mi cool down. HR 172 avg. Goal was 5:30-5:50/mi but was on the good side of that. Had practice taking gels at 5, 10, 15 and getting water every 2 miles or so.
Total: 150
What this guy said.See you at CIM... I'm looking to hit about 1:09:10 through the first half there...I think we'll have a good pack there.
Stanton K wrote:
It seems like there is a lot of mileage and shorter, borderline anaerobic work, but not really anything in between. Outside of the 15 at MP, your longest rep is 6 minutes. I would add a lot more grinding tempos if I were you. You don't need to run 4:15 for any of the miles in your marathon. Also, you've got a big taper prior to Columbus half (which I assume you are racing hard). Racing it is fine 8 weeks out, but you've lost a lot of opportunities for training stimulus with the taper and then recovery.
I would supplant some of the shorter speed work with more grinding tempos with harder finishes. Something like 8 miles at 5:20, 2 miles at 4:55. Or 12 miles with the first 6 at 5:30, last 6 at 5:15.
Force- first off great week. I meant to post this awhile back when you mentioned fueling. I'm wondering if this Maurten Drink Mix 320 would be of interest from a fueling stand point. It seems like a complete game changer to me (we'll see when I test it for real on race day). Way more carbohydrates than any drink or gel. Kipchoge and the rest of the breaking 2 crew used it, and Bekele in Berlin last year, Kipsang etc (not sure if he used it today when his stomach was upset though).... Has only been available in EUROPE, but available in the US starting Tuesday
* I typed "EU" and somehow it turned that into that all caps situation
Hey Forcerunner! I am honestly impressed with your consistent and (at least in my opinion) intelligent training. When you stay healthy and well inside yourself till your goal race you will definitely be able to run sub 2:20. Speed shouldn't be a problem, too with your 10k PR. Good luck!
Sage - Looking forward to it!
Slo-twitch - I got some Marturen this past week and tried it. So far so good! I like drinking from bottles compared to gels.
Pikachu - It's been a while! Thanks I really appreciate it!
Here's this past week in case anyone cares or has insights.
M - 10 am / 5 pm
T - 10 am / 6.2 pm with strides
W - 17 am / 6 with strides
R - 9.2 am / 10 x 1min on 1min off @ 5:17/mi avg for whole thing
F - 6 am / 8 pm
S - 7 am / 6.2 pm
S - 3 warm up, 15.4 @ 5:21/mi, 1 cool down am. / 6 with short hills pm
Total: 124
Hey man those are some nice workouts! (and weekly mileage).You seem to have plenty of speed/Vo2max/aerobic power.It is hard to judge one's training based on just one week, but I'd look to do at least some 22 mile Long Runs and more "longer Threshold" types of sessions just a tad faster than marathon goal pace. Stuff like 3 x 5km with a short rest.Your "fartlek/interval session" is very impressive (5:17 pace ave!) but also very short. The 15 miler at 5:21 pace is also very impressive and shows a good depth of fitness....it might have been better if you didn't double that day and instead just did a straight up 21-mile Long Run where you threw down 10-miles near the end at 5:30 pace though. Reminds me of the "Hansons simulator" where we'd all run 16-miles at "goal marathon race pace" (usually too fast IMO). That weekly mileage is very, very solid.You definitely have the talent to run way under 2:20, but you want to train to ensure that you won't bonk in the last 20. I know way too many guys that could run 20 miles at 2:15 pace, but then they "go backwards" in the last 10km of a marathon race. It's all about that last 10km. Stay healthy, stay consistent and good luck!
Forcerunner wrote:
Sage - Looking forward to it!
Slo-twitch - I got some Marturen this past week and tried it. So far so good! I like drinking from bottles compared to gels.
Pikachu - It's been a while! Thanks I really appreciate it!
Here's this past week in case anyone cares or has insights.
M - 10 am / 5 pm
T - 10 am / 6.2 pm with strides
W - 17 am / 6 with strides
R - 9.2 am / 10 x 1min on 1min off @ 5:17/mi avg for whole thing
F - 6 am / 8 pm
S - 7 am / 6.2 pm
S - 3 warm up, 15.4 @ 5:21/mi, 1 cool down am. / 6 with short hills pm
Total: 124
I actually really like the 15.4 at marathon pace. I think it's a good indicator workout and a good way to lock in pace and build mental focus. I'm a good tier or two below OP, but cranking a long bit of running at MP builds a ton of confidence come race day. I do three of these per cycle.
I would definitely work in some long tempo intervals (4 x 2 miles with 2:00 rest, 3 x 5k with 3:00 rest) in place of the fartlek work. Just more benefit for the marathon, I think.
Of course, I'd love to be able to do any of those workouts, so I'm not intending to be critical. Just food for thought.
15-16 miles at marathon race pace is a different workout for a 2:30+-2:40 guy vs a guy that wants to run a sub 2:20 marathon. The faster one gets in the marathon, the closer velocity at Lactate Threshold is to velocity at Marathon pace. So it is a sliding spectrum.For example, a lot of athletes we have coached/advised run a 10km in 45-min or even 50-min. 10km race pace is actually very close to their Lactate Threshold in that case.However, for this guy (who ran a 1:03 for 20km and likely could go closer to 1:05 or faster for a full half marathon), his Lactate Threshold pace/velocity is very close to Half Marathon Race Pace velocity. He wants to narrow the gap between Lactate Threshold and Marathon pace by increasing specific Running Economy (some of this will be dependent on carb utilization and fat burning). While he definitely could do a 15-16 miler at marathon goal pace, it doesn't always mean he should (or even has too). There can be a lot of structural stress there and it becomes more risky at higher velocity running. He also didn't do it at marathon pace as he wants to run sub 2:20.. A 2:20 marathon is 5:20 pace. So he needs to run sub 5:20 pace for 15 miles....that is a pretty hard session on 120+ miles a week!!I think he'd be better off doing some solid 21-22-mile long runs with maybe a 5-10 mile pick-up to 5:30 pace - as well as workouts like 3 x 5km and 5 x 2miles at around 5:00 pace with a short rest. And less doubles (especially on the weekend or if there a day off from work).
Smoove wrote:
I actually really like the 15.4 at marathon pace. I think it's a good indicator workout and a good way to lock in pace and build mental focus. I'm a good tier or two below OP, but cranking a long bit of running at MP builds a ton of confidence come race day. I do three of these per cycle.
I would definitely work in some long tempo intervals (4 x 2 miles with 2:00 rest, 3 x 5k with 3:00 rest) in place of the fartlek work. Just more benefit for the marathon, I think.
Of course, I'd love to be able to do any of those workouts, so I'm not intending to be critical. Just food for thought.
I agree, and was pretty clear in my post, that the marathon pace work doesn't yield a huge physiological boost. Even at 2:30, the difference between LT and marathon pace is only :15 or so. That's why I wouldn't make it a base part of a plan. But there are benefits to be gained. Locking in race pace, building confidence, maintaining focus deep into a run, etc. Race modeling is worth spending some time on.
Totally agree regarding long tempo intervals.
And let's not forget the cumulative fatigue from OP's mileage makes 25K at Marathon pace a much tougher workout.
I like the 15 miler at MP. Forcerunner is training at the pace he will have to race. That's race specific training. Ask Canova, Ryan Hall, Meb, etc... they all will tell you the same: Train at race pace (or converted pace when at altitude) in the last couple weeks.
1. He didn't run race pace. He ran slower (over 5:20 per mile).When you are a sub 2:20 marathoner, running 15 miles at goal race pace on 120+ miles per week is a very hard session for most. It does not have the same stimulus as it does for slower (i.e. 2:30+ marathon runners) who get more benefit from it with less chance of injury/overtraining. 2. Being at altitude v. sea level changes the pace spectrum for obvious reasons. It also really depends if one is at 5000-6000 feet vs. 7500-9000'. Kipchoge is doing 3-min and 10-in intervals at barely faster than his marathon race pace...but he is at altitude. 3. Canova has a lot of alterations with pace. "95% of MP", "105% of MP." You don't need to even train at M.P to run a great marathon. Run paces slightly faster and slightly slower though and do Long Runs that approach marathon pace/velocity for at least some miles. 4. But it all depends on what "MP" actually is. This guy could have a PB of 2:24 and he is having a "goal MP" of sub 2:19 - or maybe this is a marathon debut?. So do we base things off of "goal MP" and extrapolate? At this level a difference of 5-10sec/mile can really make a difference in a particular workout goal and the stimulus of a training cycle. 5. From a physiological perspective it is very helpful that for this guy his half marathon race pace is basically going to be very close to his Lactate Threshold pace (60-min all out even paced in a race situation.) With that in mind (in this pace/time range) it is also usually within 20-sec/mile of potential goal marathon race pace. You want to train to ensure that Running Economy around that pace range is as efficient as possible. So say he does a lot of sessions at 10sec/mile Faster than Marathon Race pace....that is going to be an effective boost in Running Economy at Marathon Race Pace AND it is going to improve aerobic adaptations/Lactate clearance probably more effectively than just doing long sessions right at Marathon Race Pace. On a personal note, I'll admit I've failed to train myself well enough to run a sub 2:19:00 in the last OTQ cycle...so obviously I do make a lot of mistakes with my own training programs and training theory - but I have coached myself to 16th at Boston in 2015 (and I've run under 2:20 in the marathon five times) so I am very familiar with this specific pace-range and the background of runners that have run just under 2:20.
Pikachu wrote:
I like the 15 miler at MP. Forcerunner is training at the pace he will have to race. That's race specific training. Ask Canova, Ryan Hall, Meb, etc... they all will tell you the same: Train at race pace (or converted pace when at altitude) in the last couple weeks.
I will also add that a few Long Runs (exceeding 20-miles)
at a moderate-hard intensity (i.e. averaging at least sub 6:00-6:15/mile pace with surges or pick-ups down to at least 5:30 or even faster than MP for a few miles) can help stimulate fat burning efficiency and are important for the metabolism. It also puts a fairly specific strain on the leg muscles (do some slightly rolling downhills a few times to get the legs ready for the pounding that happens in a net downhill marathon like CIM) .
Of course training at 120 mpw+ puts usually triggers this adaptation as well and promotes more efficient glycogen loading.
I think you are getting a little nit picky here. He ran 15.4 at 5:51 pace. 2:20 is 5:20 pace (5:20.6). For all intents and purposes, he ran 15.4 at goal marathon pace. Given that the OP is shooting for 2:20, a very solid time, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he has a basis for this being his goal time at 12 weeks out.You've given lots of great advice, but I think some of us just disagree with you as to the value of long runs at MP. It is far from my favorite workout because, even as a 2:30 marathoner, it is very hard for me to get 13 in at MP, never mind 15+; and I would much prefer long tempo intervals instead. But I think hitting race pace for extended periods in training just a few times does have value.
S. Canaday wrote:
1. He didn't run race pace. He ran slower (over 5:20 per mile).
When you are a sub 2:20 marathoner, running 15 miles at goal race pace on 120+ miles per week is a very hard session for most. It does not have the same stimulus as it does for slower (i.e. 2:30+ marathon runners) who get more benefit from it with less chance of injury/overtraining.