Why no African cyclists? Because the white cyclists dope too?

So why were superbly talented British athletes like Kathy Cooke the eptiome of female grace in motion as compared to the East German/Czechs if she would have been on the sauce too?

The Soviet Bloc athletes rarely ran on the European circuit. Why do you think that was? Their best male performances in championships at middle-distance were behind the iron curtain such as Prague 78 and Moscow 80. The fact that East European female middle-distance athletes were far more successful than their men demonstrates that the peds available back then were not as effective as EPO, and were likely steroids that helped women more than men, and which female Brits evidently weren't taken (at least the runners - obviously some exceptions such as a certain Javelin thrower).

Why did the Africans progress so quickly as soon as EPO became available and the Brits go backward? Did Junior champions like Yates, Sharpe, Robb etc think '-nah, Coe, Cram, Ovett, Elliot, were cheating so and sos, but I'm not going to go down that route. You're saying that the 90's middle-distance Brits for some bizarre reason where ethical and the guys before them weren't? Or that Yates and Sharpe were taking EPO but they couldn't get hold of the other juice that Ovett was supposedly taking and that's why they ran slower? Maybe El G would have ran sub 3:20 if he had access to what Crammy was taking behind closed doors?

Guys like you only have one 'argument' - it was possible to cheat back in the 80s so everybody must have done so. That's not an argument it's an assumption about human nature. Also says something about your own morality.

No, I am saying that the European mid distance runners slowed down in the 90s because steroid testing improved a lot. Nothing to do with English being more or less ethical than others. Look up the stats.

All the while the European long distance runners improved during the 90s because of EPO. Numbers don't lie.

Obviously Europeans and Africans alike could and did use EPO freely in the 90s. The African dominance had nothing to do with no testing in Africa, because there was no EPO testing anywhere. You should know that.

drugs cheats out please wrote:

No, I am saying that the European mid distance runners slowed down in the 90s because steroid testing improved a lot. Nothing to do with English being more or less ethical than others. Look up the stats.

All the while the European long distance runners improved during the 90s because of EPO. Numbers don't lie.

Obviously Europeans and Africans alike could and did use EPO freely in the 90s. The African dominance had nothing to do with no testing in Africa, because there was no EPO testing anywhere. You should know that.

Your argument makes no sense. So Cram, Ovett, and Coe were roided to the gills, but Wesinghage, etc weren't. Yates and the others were taken boat loads of EPO every week but whereas North Africans who were scarcely any better as juniors were running 3:26, Yates was running slower than Cram had because Cram had steroids and Yates didn't. So EPO is less effective than steroids for distance running???

I know that there was no EPO testing anywhere, I'm arguing that the Africans were abusing it to a far greater extent than Europeans.

Most of the posters here haven't read anything beyond the title of this thread and aren't even putting forward anything resembling logical arguments, so I'll close this thread now.

Kenyan white boy, with no material advantages, with his puny white genes surrounded by 'superhuman' natural endurance athletes, becomes the greatest (and richest by far) endurance athlete not only in Kenya but the world, arguably on his way to becoming the greatest endurance athlete in history.

Nuff said. Thread closed /

My friend, I must admit that this is the best troll post ever. 10/10. Complete brilliance.

Curtis Robb 1:45/3:38.5

Sharpe: 1:43:98

yate 1:45/3:35

vs

Ovett 1:44/3:30.8

Coe 1:41.7/3:29.77

Cram 1:42.88/3:29.7

Are not really close. It should be pointed out that the golden trio had a good supporting cast (peter Elliot, Moorecraft,...). There is something about having a group of people doing something raising the level of their peers.

Running, cycling, XC skiing, and swimming are all slightly different sports that require different training and body types. It isn't too shocking to learn that the best in one sport isn't the best in another. And none of that discounts how much culture plays a role in sports. I doubt Brazilians have some genetic advantage to being footballers. They have a culture though that enables the development of all the talent they have.

And drugs are always the easy way out. The reason that so many more kids are run sub 4:10/9:00 now than they did in the 80s/90s (or even the 70s) is unlikely because a lot more kids decide to take EPO. I am sure there are some HS drug cheats but thinking that dozens of kids decide to start doping is pushing it.

It's sort of been answered a few times, but the answer is:

There's nothing to distance running. You just run harder than anyone else. I mean, in nearly every marathon ever, it's try and keep up until 20-22 miles, then try and run away from everyone else to the finish. Not a lot there.

It's not like a huge group behind you can somehow then run faster than you at will, and catch you before the finish. Hey, winning a bike race is hard!

Cycling requires skills usually only attained by those who have been riding bikes forever, and developed skills through BMX or other off-road riding, cyclocross or other off-road riding, and years upon years of pedaling and learning how to ride in groups and react in ways that benefit, not harm you. There is none of that, and no infrastructure in Africa, or history leading anyone to take this route, when running is so simple.

But yeah, drugs are rampant in Africa. And they're doing it poorly. Times from the 80s were nearly as fast, pre-current drugs, so what's up?

back woods wrote:

Getting to an elite level in cycling requires having a decent bike (expensive) and roads in decent condition that are safe to ride on. I suspect it is the last point (road safety) that makes it hard to cycle in places like Kenya and Ethiopia. Too much danger of being killed by bad drivers.

Expensive bike is total red herring and of zero import. Just because fat American hobbyists blow wads doesn't mean it's necessary for any but the very very highest level- at which point you're sponsored.

Froome on steel frame 105 w/ clinchers beats all carbon fatso one legged

The correct answer has been given: culture, culture, culture, Feed and train and race the Kenyans you'd find some talent, especially climbers but not just.

To clarify about Froome's Kenyan background.

He grew up with a single (Scottish) mother in a little apartment outside of Nairobi. They were not well off even by Kenyan standards, and he certainly could not afford a decent bike.

His mother happened to know the Kenyan cycling champ (a native Kenyan), who agreed to help and train Froome.

There could have been countless native Kenyans with a degree of interest in cycling, even just with their cheap BMX or mountain bike, but the Kenyan champion obviously recognized some superior talent in Froome. Are people really saying that with the perfect environment in Kenya with all those trails, there aren't thousands of kids there on (cheap) bicycles?

In his late teens he moved to South Africa to attend school and then university there, retaining his Kenyan identity.

By the time the Commonwealth Games came around in 2006, he was good enough to compete for Kenya and it was his dream to do so, but his fellow Kenyan (black) cyclists threatened to go on strike if he was selected.

That's like the GB athletics team going on strike to protest at a 'Somali American based' Mo Farah being selected to represent Britain. That wouldn't have been acceptable in Britain even in the 1930's, but hey, it's fine to be racist as a Kenyan, as we witness regularly from the posts of El Keniano and Native Son.

So if it wasn't for the racism of Kenyans, Froome would still be officially Kenyan and would have won Kenya medals as well as titles.

Insecure idiot.

It's obvious the OP is Coevett.

So 1/10 because he got someone to give him a 10/10.

I'm not going to waste time discussing the kind of claims that the OP suggests.

But there's one interesting question here: why don't African athletes dominate cycling as they do the other biggest endurance sport -runninng?

There are many possible explanations aside from the PEDs extremely boring topic (although in principle, it can be a factor). Couple of possible explanations.

First of all, cycling and biking simply do not require the same skills. There's some overlapping here, of course, VO2, lactic tolerance, etc. So correlation between excelling at running and excelling at biking must be a thing. You have Michael Woods as an example, the Canadian 1500m guy who ran 3:39 when he was 20 and had to quit the sport because of injuries. He is now a TOP classic rider, although it took him some time. I am thinking about another Spanish duathlon athlete who ran 2.10' out of 80-90 km a week, plus biking. So biking probably helps.

BUT: they are different sports. So the correlation between excelling at running and excelling at biking is not perfect. You can be born to run, and just be good at cycling - and the opposite as well. I think that the main factor here is probably running economy. As far as I know, this looks like the biggest advantage for African runners. This advantage translates to +- 0 advantage in cycling. So, if their (likely) biggest advantage disappears in cycling, there's no point in expecting them to dominate cycling as well.

Moreover, as it has been pointed, cycling is not a thing yet in Africa, mainly due to "social" (cultural, economical, roads, etc) reasons Eritrea is a good example of that. They DO have the biking culture -I think because of the Italian influence- and they DO produce good cyclists. Actually, more than you would expect from a very poor, <6million people country, given the fact that biking is logistically and economically way more demanding than running. So I guess that probably IF other African countries had the same biking culture (bc the sport becomes more available/popular), they would be producing good riders (as Eritrea suggests).

I hope this to happen in the medium term¡

Here are a few explanations for the absense of Africans in road cycling:

- It is possible that Africans lose their good running economy when cycling because cycling is more straightforward effort than running ("No elastic component", as Dr. Michael Ashenden has emphasized). Unsurprisingly runners generally tend to have lowish relative (and most likely absolute) Vo2Max vs. cyclists and cross-country skiers, and other factors such as running economy are more important than Vo2Max in predicting running performance and many authors have pointed out that the running efficiency of Kenyans tend to be superior than that of Europeans.

There was recently a review on the known Vo2Max figures of different types of endurance athletes, and the authors point out that interestingly not one runner had exceeded the figure of 90 ml/min/kg whereas many XC-skiers and cyclists had exceeded this value, and even Kipchoge Keino had Vo2Max of around 5.0 l/min with 81-82 ml/min/kg in a test conducted in the mid-1960s whereas there were likely even slower runners with certainly better absolute, and likely also relative figures, therefore his superior performance wasn't fully explained by his Vo2Max.

- Particularly East Africans tend to have small body dimensions and correspondingly relatively lowish absolute Vo2Max values even if their relative figures are high. This can have a detrimental effect on cycling performance, because energy expenditure doesn't increase even in uphill cycling with 1:1-ratio, and even a 55 kg / 6.3 W/kg guy isn't necessarily a faster climber than a 75 kg / 5.7 W/kg guy even if his relative Vo2Max (and W/Kg) is some 10 % higher.

Eritrea has produced a number of very good cyclists. None have been a threat to winning the TDF but they may get there some day. The country has been engaged in war for 30 years with their neighbor Ethiopia which has hindered their advancement. Now that the war has ended things may change. Do keep in mind that Italy and their cycling culture was in Eritrea, then known as Ethiopia, for many years when Italy was the dominate power in the area.

Froome the Rejected Kenyan wrote:

but, hey, it's fine to be racist as a Kenyan, as we witness regularly from the posts of El Keniano and Native Son.

Can you point to a single instance of this alleged racism from me or Native Son? Thanks.

Yes east africans are on average better runners but white europeans are on average more intelligent. At the extremes these averages are more pronounced as anyone who understands statistics will understand.

There have been many studies to determine why East Africans (EA) dominate middle distance and distance running. Here are some of the factors I remember.

Torso to leg length ratio: Generally, EAs have shorter torsos relative to leg length

Slight build: EAs tend to be skinny to the point of being almost anorexic WITHOUT losing strength or healthy. As we saw with Mary Cain, attempts to get to these extreme lower weights can be counterproductive for Westerners.

Low lower leg weight. We know that even a 1 oz difference in shoe weight makes a difference in running performance. EAs generally have less calf muscle. I was shocked to see this firsthand when I did a warm-up jog behind some Kenyans who came into town to cherry-pick our local marathon. The guy was my height, but his calf muscle was about the size of half a tennis ball tucked up just under the knee. The rest of his leg was bone covered by skin.

There have been other studies dealing with tendons in the lower leg, but I don't recall enough to explain it here. Suffice to say that it also gave EAs an advantage.

Biniam Ghirmay (Eritrea) rode solidly in the Milan-San Remo today. He was with the lead group -- all big names -- till the peak of the Poggio (last climb) and was only dropped because he is not a good descender. At just 21, I think he is one for the future, esp in races and stages that favour sprinters -- which obviously rules him out of winning the major tours.

Sports that require money upfront aren’t dominated by Africans.

Once Africa becomes more middle class, all sports will be dominated by Africans.

Yikes, don’t hold your breath on that happening in our lifetime.