Does an elite 6 min/mile easy pace feels just like a hobby jogger 8 min pace?

Primo Numero Uno wrote:

As a 2:17 marathoner I will say once I'm warmed up after a few miles 6:15 to 6:30 pace is usually that sweet spot I like for my easy days. That is comfortable. I can go a little slower and I have buddies who are faster than me who take their easy days slower than 7min pace. But to me that pace feels uncomfortable and I feel out of sync running that slow.

Sounds right to me. Many years ago when I was a 2:43 marathoner, 7:15 pace felt "comfortably easy". So for a 2:13 marathoner to find 6:00 pace comfortable doesn't surprise me at all.

easy not steady wrote:

AdrianCh wrote:

I meant proportionally

So for example if said hobby-jogger ran his easy pace at 35% of his marathon pace, would it feel the same if the elite marathoner ran 35% of his marathon pace, even if that was 6 min miles?

Paces are not strictly proportional, but it's not very significant. Your easy pace gets slower compared to your race pace the faster you are.

Again you can use Jack Daniels to visualize this. His easy pace for a slow runner (VDOT 40) is about 116% of the marathon pace (8:46) while for a fast runner (VDOT 80) easy pace is about 120% of marathon pace (4:52).

This makes sense because MP isn't the same intensity for the two. For one it is 3:45 race pace, for the other 2:10 race pace. If the VDOT 80 running was doing a race that took 3:45 minute his easy pace would probably be around 116% of that pace.

AdrianCh wrote:

my friend says 6 min pace can never feel easy

Takeaway: you have slow friends.

Yes. The faster your race pace is the faster your easy pace is.

I base this on personal experience in two different situations.

Years ago I picked up a systemic virus which resulted in a very sudden increase in my race and training paces. Suddenly went from racing 30 min 10k to racing 35 min 10k. Training paces dropped similarly. Racing 35 min 10k internally felt just about the same effort wise as 30 min, except it was slower and took longer.

Now that I am old racing at 7-8 minute miles internally feels like it once did racing at sub 5 minute miles, except it is now slower and takes much longer. Training paces have dropped similarly.

slow now wrote:

I can say that 7 min miles felt a lot easier in college or even high school than 9 min miles do now.

For my body, fitness built upon fitness - I felt better, running faster, going longer.

Now I run four times a week and even 9 min miles aren't easy like 7 min miles were.

For myself, 8:45 miles now (easy) feels the same as 7:15 miles felt 35 years ago in college. I follow a 2:15 marathoner on Strava who does some easy 6 milers at 6:30 pace, average heart rate low 120s. For me that heart rate would feel like easy running but it would be 8:45 pace.

AdrianCh wrote:

So I have been arguing with a friend.

We have been talking about a marathoner that can do a 2:13 marathon. He does his general not workout runs at around 6 min pace.

I say he feels just like we feel at around 7:30 min pace, while my friend says 6 min pace can never feel easy and that they guy is training medium hard all the time (about 120 mpw)

So who is right? Can you run 6 min pace and still tell jokes all day long?

...some people actually took this question seriously!

this and this wrote:

Yes. The faster your race pace is the faster your easy pace is.

Okay, I should say that I agree with the OP's basic premise. I just disagree with his definition of easy, for every runner.

Anecdotally, my MP is in the low 5:40s, and my easy runs are in the 7:15-7:45 range. I also cover a lot of miles in the mid sixes, without calling it a workout, but it's not easy unless I'm fresh.

AdrianCh wrote:

So I have been arguing with a friend.

We have been talking about a marathoner that can do a 2:13 marathon. He does his general not workout runs at around 6 min pace.

I say he feels just like we feel at around 7:30 min pace, while my friend says 6 min pace can never feel easy and that they guy is training medium hard all the time (about 120 mpw)

So who is right? Can you run 6 min pace and still tell jokes all day long?

Running in England about 35 years ago, our "steady" runs were probably under 6 min a lot of the time, and I remember a couple of better guys - one was a 4:03 miler, so what you'd probably call sub-elite - and he and a similarly talented friend would blow by while reciting Monty Python sketches.

I was never at that level, but 6 min was very comfortable for years - I'm 60 now and the steady runs are about 7 min per mile, so I can guarantee you that 6 min per mile feels dead easy for a elite, a sub-elite, and probably even a sub-sub elite.

It is a smart rule of thumbs to never train at a pace slower than 1:00 over marathon pace. That's easy pace.

Ghost

Club-HW, London SW19

Best times- 4.19, 8.57, 15.12, 32.22, 51.20, 1.50.49 -1500, 3000, 5000, 10,000, 10 miles, 20 miles

Height and weight at peak -1.87/66 kg

Year-1978 -1980

Includes 2 years at Mansfield State College, PA, under coach Ed Winrow, and indoor 3 mile run -14.42, at Bucknell, Feb.1981.

Mileage 60 mpw, with occasional peaks at 70-80.

Pace -most runs at average of 7 mins per mile. Some progressive shorter runs would finish at around 6 mins per mile.

So the bulk sweet spot was 7 mins per mile.

Present Height/weight at age 61-1.86/83kg

Can run 5k in 22.00, at 61 but painful

Ghost in China

Ghost1 wrote:

Ghost

Club-HW, London SW19

Best times- 4.19, 8.57, 15.12, 32.22, 51.20, 1.50.49 -1500, 3000, 5000, 10,000, 10 miles, 20 miles

Height and weight at peak -1.87/66 kg

Year-1978 -1980

Includes 2 years at Mansfield State College, PA, under coach Ed Winrow, and indoor 3 mile run -14.42, at Bucknell, Feb.1981.

Mileage 60 mpw, with occasional peaks at 70-80.

Pace -most runs at average of 7 mins per mile. Some progressive shorter runs would finish at around 6 mins per mile.

So the bulk sweet spot was 7 mins per mile.

Present Height/weight at age 61-1.86/83kg

Can run 5k in 22.00, at 61 but painful

Ghost in China

Thanks Ghost. How much of that slow down (15.12 to 22.00) do you attribute to the weight gain, how much to not being able to do the training volume/intensity you once did and how much to the effects of aging (lower maximum heart rate, less strength, shorter stride etc).

Another giver of +1 wrote:

Ghost1 wrote:

Ghost

Club-HW, London SW19

Best times- 4.19, 8.57, 15.12, 32.22, 51.20, 1.50.49 -1500, 3000, 5000, 10,000, 10 miles, 20 miles

Height and weight at peak -1.87/66 kg

Year-1978 -1980

Includes 2 years at Mansfield State College, PA, under coach Ed Winrow, and indoor 3 mile run -14.42, at Bucknell, Feb.1981.

Mileage 60 mpw, with occasional peaks at 70-80.

Pace -most runs at average of 7 mins per mile. Some progressive shorter runs would finish at around 6 mins per mile.

So the bulk sweet spot was 7 mins per mile.

Present Height/weight at age 61-1.86/83kg

Can run 5k in 22.00, at 61 but painful

Ghost in China

Thanks Ghost. How much of that slow down (15.12 to 22.00) do you attribute to the weight gain, how much to not being able to do the training volume/intensity you once did and how much to the effects of aging (lower maximum heart rate, less strength, shorter stride etc).

Another question for Ghost:

Ed Winrow (6th at 1968 Olympic Trials Marathon) was one of the runner's highlighted in Joe Henderson's pamphlet "Long Slow Distance." My recollection is that, as of the late 1960s, he advocated a lot of slow mileage (a little slower than your "sweet spot") and no speedwork except frequent racing or strides.

What was his coaching philosophy/typical week like when you ran for him at Mansfield State?

Kichoge runs warm-ups and warm-downs at 9 min per mile and even slower. Is he a hobby jogger too? I'm sure 6 min mile pace does not require much effort from Kichoge, but it's clear that running quick paces all the time is not helpful. Focus the effort on quality workouts and meeting the goals on those days. Easy days should be easy, whatever level you are.

Warm up and warm down is a totally different animal than a training run. I'd think there would be minimal benefit for him to do an easy run at 9:00/mile pace, and probably would be better off doing some low-impact alternative than bouncing around that slowly.

I would say so

You are completely right. I'm nowhere close to a 2:13 guy (4:03 1500 and 15:09 5k) and I can run sub-6:00s on a flat road or trail for miles while keeping up a conversation at peak fitness. 6:40s is what I usually run, and that feels like a very comfortable pace; I am rarely tired unless I did something strenuous the previous day. For an actual 2:13 marathoner...6:00 must feel like a jog. I know a 2:19 guy who does his runs at sub-6:00 and he says it feels like jogging. With a high enough fitness level it's very possible for that to feel easy.

I do not understand in any way, shape or form how a 6 minute mile pace could possibly feel truly easy for anyone. I am not ignorant to the fact that really fast people could probably run this pace all day though. I have had my VO2 max lab tested at 50.3ml/kg as a 28 year old female so running an easy 6 minute mile is not something I will be experiencing in this lifetime. I find the JD easy paces pretty accurate, I plug in my current race fitness and it will come up with the easy paces I usually run just floating along without much effort. If you plug in some world class 10k-Marathon times, it shows some of their VDOT easy paces are actually closer to 5:30/mile so it wouldn’t actually surprise me if elite marathon runners can go quite a bit under 6:00 pace for easy runs.

AdrianCh wrote:

So I have been arguing with a friend.

We have been talking about a marathoner that can do a 2:13 marathon. He does his general not workout runs at around 6 min pace.

I say he feels just like we feel at around 7:30 min pace, while my friend says 6 min pace can never feel easy and that they guy is training medium hard all the time (about 120 mpw)

So who is right? Can you run 6 min pace and still tell jokes all day long?

both of you have empty lives.

I'm going to disagree with what most people are posting. Yes, an elite running 6 mins/mile feels as EASY as a hobby-jogger running 8 mins/mile, but it doesn't feel the same. You are properly running at 6 mins/mile in a way that you just aren't at 8 mins/mile. Of course, the threshold for "properly running" moves as you get faster, but not by as much.

I've had a variety of easy paces through the years/injuries, and they all feel just about as tough. But if that pace is 8 mins/mile versus 7 mins/mile, the running feels a lot less bouncy and fluid. If I drop down to 7 mins/mile, I regain that feeling of flow, but (in these years), the pace feels much harder.

So I think there are two dimensions here: "ease" and "feel". As a rule of thumb, I'd say that feel moves half as much as ease does. So 6 mins/mile is as easy for an elite as 8 mins/mile is for a hobby-jogger, but the feel of the run is what the hobby-jogger would feel at 7 mins/mile.