Doesn't Russian Doping Scandal Prove Canova is Right about EPO?

Matthew Kisorio ran 58:46/2:10.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathew_Kisorio

The Independent:

"I didn't run up to my standard during this year's Boston marathon," he told German TV channel ARD. "To get my power of endurance up, he [a doctor] told me they will take care of it. I asked if this is considered doping. He said: 'No problem. The substance stays only three to four days in your blood circulation and then it is impossible to prove.'

"I went with it, because everyone told me I wasn't the only one – and none of the others got caught for doping. I know that a lot of medical substances are used, which are injected straight to the blood for the body to have more oxygen. And when you run, you run so smooth. You have more stamina. When the prize money comes in the doctors want a piece of your success."

Kisorio added: "They open a pharmacy and claim they're selling legal medication. Then they approach the athletes. It's the same all over the country. Athletics Kenya knows now what the situation is. Maybe this is an ongoing problem that finally surfaces."

jCo wrote:

Subway, you forget cyclists took more than EPO - they took testosterone as well.

Don't forget the HGH.

Why wouldn't distance runners do the same? Oh, that's right, they do.

rekrunner wrote:

Yes thank you. "rekrunnner" =/= "rekrunner"

I see no reason for me to repeat old discussions.

But regarding the topic of this thread, we can see which events the Russians did well in. It does make me wonder where the men were, outside of racewalking. The same with "Ma's Army", why not "dope" the men too?

Better return on time, effort and money invested with women, the East Germans proved this too.

Renatos position is not relevant to Russians at all. None of them are East Africans born, living, and training at altitude.

None of them belong to the "most talented runners".

Renatos theory, if it can be called that, only applies to those above. He would admit it works on slow white Russians.

casual obsever wrote:

jCo wrote:

Obviously I am talking about Men.

EPO does not work on men.

That "conclusion" would only make sense if only the Russians used EPO.

But yes, there are really only two possibilities here:

- either the Russians did not dope more than the rest

- or doping does not provide any significant boost.

My two cents, supported by the history of track and field, are on the first possibility.

I think this post is close. I think other nations dope but the Russians, particularly men, aren't passionate nor talented at distance running. The whistleblowing stories indicate for example some of the Russian women were extremely lousy non talents who were doped to the gills to become competitive. Doping makes very good, hard working and promising athletes outstanding. Probably makes some ok runners outstanding too. So I think it doesn't say much about anything other than that a good many Russian distance runners are lazy, poorly trained and I talented compared to westerners and East Africans. I can't blame them. Russia is a cold, corrupt, bleak country. It's been that way for ages... tsarism, communist successions, Second World War bloodbath, soviet purges, etc etc

Plus there is way more glory for them in race walking, women's sprinting in the 80s, wrestling, MMA, and other Russian-Ey stuff.

jCo wrote:

Subway, you forget cyclists took more than EPO - they took testosterone as well.

Runners take testosterone as well.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

jCo wrote:

Subway, you forget cyclists took more than EPO - they took testosterone as well.

Don't forget the HGH.

Why wouldn't distance runners do the same? Oh, that's right, they do.

Professional cyclists will try anything first. They are human lab rats.

from Wiki:

Marco Pantani and Dr. Fuentes (who said he also had a 'medical relationship' with winners of the London marathon):

In 2006, two years after his death, Pantani was linked to the Operación Puerto doping case. According to documentation released by Spanish radio network Cadena SER, Pantani was allegedly given the code name "PTNI" by Eufemiano Fuentes, with a detailed program in 2003, his last season, including EPO, growth hormone, Insulin, Levothroid and IGF-1.[62] Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera indicated that he was administered over 40,000 units of EPO, seven doses of growth hormone, thirty doses of anabolic steroids and four doses of hormones used to treat menopause.[63] In 2006 Jesús Manzano, a Spanish professional road racing cyclist whose statements led the Guardia Civil to conduct the Operación Puerto investigation, disclosed in an interview with French television channel France 3 that Pantani was a client of Eufemiano Fuentes.[64]

Matt Rendell's biography of Pantani suggests Pantani used recombinant erythropoietin (rEPO) throughout his professional career. It alleges that seasonal hematocrit levels from several sources showed variations which exceeded those possible naturally. A French senate report into doping released in July 2013 confirmed that Pantani had tested positive for EPO during retroactive testing of samples from the 1998 Tour de France conducted in 2004.[69]

Today, cyclists are trying some new things.

There has been development of orally active Hypoxia-Inducible Factor (HIF) stabilizers. You can just take a pill which works like EPO. The company FibroGen has phase 3 compounds FG-2216, FG-4592, and FG-4497, which stabilize HIF by inhibiting the enzyme prolyl-hydroxylase, which is involved in the breakdown of HIF by the ubiquitin proteosome pathway. HIF is a transcription factor which increases the gene expression of about 200 different genes, including the gene for EPO.

Increased levels of HIF-1alpha and HIF-2alpha signals cells in the kidney to increase transcription of erythropoietin (EPO), which travels to the bone marrow, binds to progenitor cells, and increases erythropoiesis, which is the production of new red blood cells. This is the mechanism of action of HIF stabilizers. It is also the mechanism of action of living at high altitude (hypoxia), which also inhibits HIF-prolyl-hydroxylase to stabilize HIF and increase endogenous EPO production, which then increases the production of RBCs containing hemoglobin. Each gram of hemoglobin binds 1.39mL of oxygen. Hemoglobin carries nearly 20mL of oxygen per 100mL of whole blood.

Another compound is cobalt chloride, which also acts to stabilize HIF, is orally active, but is not recommended, as it is toxic to the gastrointestinal system, thyroid, heart, liver and kidney. It may also cause cancer. There is now a blood test to test for cobalt levels.

Other recent research is looking at inhalation of the noble gases xenon and krypton, which are used as HIF activators to increase erythropoiesis. They have been used by Russian athletes. They have recently been banned and there are now tests for both noble gases.

For further reading, check out: Simon Beuck, et al. Hypoxia-inducible factor stabilizers and other small-molecule erythropoiesis stimulating agents in current and preventive doping analysis. Drug Testing and Analysis 2012 Nov;4(11):830-45. This article is from their special issue named Sports Drug Testing for Erythropoiesis-Stimulating Agents and Autologous Blood Transfusion. There are many interesting articles in this issue.

Hypoxia = Hypo O2

http://www.hypo2sport.com/total-hemoglobin-mass-testing-the-gold-standard/

http://www.hypo2sport.com/high-performance-services/physiologicalperformance-testing/

It is just a coincidence.

OK?

EPO isn't a magic potion that will turn a mediocre runner into an Olympic medalist. Hard, intelligent training (and a certain amount of natural talent) is still necessary. Tradition in Russian male running surely goes back to Kuts and Bolotnikov in the 1950s and 60s? In the 1970s and 80s when Russian women were running exceptional times it was a common topic for discussion - why can't Russian men run?

The number of athletes - runners and cyclists - who have testified as to the beneficial effects of EPO is too large for there to be any doubt. It works! It might not be effective on absolutely every individual - just as some forms of training have greater effects on some runners than others - but overall the weight of evidence is pretty conclusive.

rekrunnner wrote:

It definitely proves Canova is right. Liliya was totally doped and she couldn't even sniff Paula's record. And we know that Paula was totally clean.

Correct. Even Lord Coe said so, and he is really totally against doping.

People underestimate the effects of steroids in distance runners. A surprising number have been caught on them.

Helps with recovering muscle tissue, improves force of muscle contractions (i.e. strength) and makes you run faster.

If I were to bet what Farah is on, it would be steroids

i think the russians are still pretty talented,and very hard working.there is no drug on earth that can turn a mediocre runner into a world beater,although it seems the russians poured huge doses of epo and steroids into their athletes,dangerously high doses.i dont know how quick marina savinova would have been without her cocktail of drugs,but id say she could have run a two minute 800 ,naturally.doped up,she ran close to 1.55.

You seem to have trouble understanding what some words in the English language mean. Such as, "prove" and "single".

jCo wrote:

Obviously I am talking about Men.

EPO does not work on men.

Except men who are manly men

jCo wrote:

not a single 1500m runner below 3:35.

.

Yes, I makes mistake

1:42.47 Yuriy Borzakovskiy Russia 24 August 2001

IAAF seven years ago:

"Return to Cyprus for pre-season training

“I had one practice a day, sometimes two, which lasted 2 to 3 hours, recovering after the winter season,” Borzakovskiy said of his routine on the Mediterranean Island, where he put in between 90 and 100 kilometres per week.

“At first I lived about four kilometres from the sea, and then moved into the mountains. I lived and trained for three weeks at 1200-1900m altitude above the sea level. It’s not the first time I went there, and I like the training base very much. They have a good stadium but this time I did not use it, I ran cross instead.”

Bomba?

Code name "PTNI" these guys are light-bulbs, what utter originality, no codenamed like M or Q or Papa bear or Deapthroat just an abbreviation of Pantani's name.