Fair or Foul? Sonia O'Sullivan slams the fact that two Kenyan born Turks go 1-2 at 2016 Euro Cross

Always laugh at Irish comments on this given more than half their football team is not Irish.

jCo wrote:

UK Brexit so they shouldn't be part of the EURO XC Championships!!

Out with the British athletes... leave them on the island that they are.

My God Americans are stupid.

Hypocrite alert wrote:

Always laugh at Irish comments on this given more than half their football team is not Irish.

You sir are an idiot! The football team has blood connection to the Irish.

There are several points IAAF has to discuss about the change of nationality.

1) Best opportunities of life for athletes of poor Countries.

In sport as Soccer, Basket, Volleyball, players can move to teams giving them very rich contracts, FOR PLAYING IN LOCAL CLUBS in national championships, or interntional championships.

In these disciplines, money comes from the activity of clubs, not from the activity of National Teams.

This means that we can have Messi (Argentina) in Spain remaining with his original nationality, the same for Ronaldo (Portugal) in Spain, for Higuain (Argentina) in Italy, for Neymar (Brazil) in Spain, for Ibrahimovic (Sweden) in UK or, in other sports, for Gallinari (Italy) in US.

Therefore, in these kind of sports players don't change nationality, because don't have any advantage to do this.

But, in sports where there is not any economical advantage from Clubs (such as track and field), especially in Countries where Clubs practically don't exist, it's normal, and FAIR, that athletes look at the possibility to earn some money, AND THIS OPPORTUNITY CAN BE GIVEN BY NATIONAL FEDERATIONS ONLY.

So, under the INDIVIDUAL point of view, to change nationality is totally fair, and we can accept this trend.

2) Opportunity to compete in the global international Championships (WCh and Olympics), for athletes among the best in the World, but not able to be selected in the Team of their original Country.

Personally, I look at Olympics or WCh not as a competition FOR NATIONS, but as an INDIVIDUAL competition. After Olympics, everybody knows who is the Olympic Champion in one event, and in many cases doesn't know where is he from. There are cases of athletes winning medals with one Country, and after some year winning again with another Country, and what is important is that THEY were the champions.

Individual sports where there are limited numbers of participants in any events but at the same time there are official limits for being allowed to be entered (athletics, swimming) don't offer to many athletes, among the best in the world, the opportunity to compete and to look for a medal.

So, not only for money, but also for having this opportunity, many athletes chose to change nationality, going to some Country where they can have the certainty to be selected (look Torrance changing to Peru').

3) On the other hand, the participation of strong athletes coming from Countries that are the main poducers of quality in some event (like Kenyans and Ethiopians in middle and long distances, or Jamaicans in sprint) in Area Championships different from their original Area (I had already years ago this convinction when I was the head coach of Kenyan-Qatari athletes, when we went to compete in Asian Chapionships) has the clar effect to produce a loss of motivation in the local athletes, becoming one of the reasons for the loss of interest in their sport at local level.

Which possible solutions can we have ?

In my opinion, athletes can be free to change citizenship, of course respecting precise rules, when they want, also because, under legal point of view, there is no system for stopping the change of citizenship, if the rules of the new Country allow them to change.

Put in your mind that an athlete is a normal citizen, and, if I want to become Australian from my previous Italian nationality, the only organ which can decide is the Australian Government. When I'm Australian, immediately I have the right to compete for that Country, if I am a normal person.

This means that, because a rule cancelling the sovranity of every Country in this materia can't exist, the decision of give a new nationality to the athletes doesn't depend on the IAAF, but on every single Government (and in any Country there are different rules regarding this issue).

So, what IAAF can do ?

IAAF can only control what happens under its organization. For example, deciding a period of years during which athletes can't represent in any international competition the new Country, after the last date representing their old Country. This rule already exists, but under the kingdom of Lamine Diack was frequently buypassed in change of bribes (example : in Turkey, William Tanui Biwott was allowed to run for the new Country in World Indoor Championships in Istanbul starting on 9th March 2012, when his official change of citizenship was on 8th June 2011, only 10 months before, while the rule ask for one year in case of agreement with the previous Country).

At the end, my proposal is as follows :

A) In all the Championships involving ALL THE WORLD (WCh, WCCCh, WHMCh, Olympic Games) the athletes who changed citizenship CAN COMPETE IMMEDIATELY, because we need to give them the opportunity to reach their best individual result.

B) In all the Area Championships (including the Area Games, such as Asian Games, African Games or Panamerican Games) they MUST BE OFFICIALLY BELONGING TO THE NEW COUNTRY FROM NOT LESS THAN 6 YEARS.

In this case, local athletes can have their room of important results (I think that, for example, all the real European competing in European CC Champs today well know at the moment don't have any chances of medal in WCh) in one activity that can represent the MOST IMPORTANT TARGET for their value.

In this case, we can respect the right of every athlete for showing the best value in global competitions,but at the same time we can protect the motivation of local athletes, maintaining for them an important goal, represented by the Area Championships, that in this case can again grow as value, and can produce new interest in athletics.

doppers vanquish wrote:

They're Turkish Kenyans and are therefore very likely to be doping when you look at the doping track record of both of those countries (Abeylegesse etc ..). That alone is enough not to have them competing in any championships.

Brits should also not be competing when you look at all their TUE revelations.

Which ones?

Renato Canova wrote:

Personally, I look at Olympics or WCh not as a competition FOR NATIONS, but as an INDIVIDUAL competition. After Olympics, everybody knows who is the Olympic Champion in one event, and in many cases doesn't know where is he from. There are cases of athletes winning medals with one Country, and after some year winning again with another Country, and what is important is that THEY were the champions.

Guessing you would make a lot of money out of a zillion doped up Africans dominating the OIympics.

Viewing figures would be a little bit less though.

Irish wasteland wrote:

Imperial Jingoism wrote:

Ha ha ha

The British imported more athletes in the last decade than any other state. Some Brit XC teams sound like a USA college team when interviewed.

Spain, France, Belgium etc. Transfer from Africa and elsewhere on an industrial scale! And yet Turkey gets it in the neck. Is it because they outdo the others or cos talent importing is wrong.

As for Sonia. She draws a wage from commenting today but doesn't mention the obvious. The Irish results are possibly the worst ever. No team better than sixth.

What should be discussed is why hasn't Ireland developed its athletes over the years? What should they be doing to create a system that at least makes them competitive in Europe let alone the world stage.

Sonia should explain her dual country racing and why she felt ok for her.

I know we have a bigger population than most European countries, but not compared to all of Europe put together, and yet we have homegrown guys/girls in quite a few distance events who can compete with the East Africans, whether they run for an East African country or not. Try to keep up, Europe!

Sounds like it's time to make a "Native-born" and "Non-native-born" race. Of course the socialists would scream "Racist!".

gahuga wrote:

Irish wasteland wrote:

What should be discussed is why hasn't Ireland developed its athletes over the years? What should they be doing to create a system that at least makes them competitive in Europe let alone the world stage.

Sonia should explain her dual country racing and why she felt ok for her.

I know we have a bigger population than most European countries, but not compared to all of Europe put together, and yet we have homegrown guys/girls in quite a few distance events who can compete with the East Africans, whether they run for an East African country or not. Try to keep up, Europe!

Yep, dominating the junior events with '17 year olds'. Turkey is so great.

Can't believe there is any real discussion here - Sonia O'Sullivan sounds like a salty woman and is expressing some pretty blatant xenophobic ideas here. I doubt that these people are uprooting themselves entirely for their own running and even if they did, who cares? There are probably people born in europe who don't really identify as european or base themselves out of the US, yet they go over there a few times a year to run good time. isn't that hte same principle?

Like Mo Farah, for instance. He lives and trains in the US, is a somalian born runner and yet she has no tough words for him. What gives with her double standard? Maybe its because he's winning medals she respects and here she is on the side of the runners Hawkins and Butchart who ran fine races but were beaten through and through by these turks. So she finds a reason to dislike them and because she was fast, people listen to her. I unfollowed the xenophobe on twitter, I don't need to hear more of her uneducated opinion. As far as vetting immigrants goes, I think we need to be letting people come to europe or over there to the US to get a better life if they feel they need. There are some people in distressing and dangerous situations which is more or less why people need to immigrate and why almost everyone's ancestors immigrated. It wasn't "to have a good time"

Renato makes excellent points. However, if the Oly/WC are about individuals and not nations than the current structure is obsolete. The Oly/WC should be based on times and marks alone. If a country is under represented in a event they must try harder and if a country is over represented than congratulations on their achievement. The world does not need anymore strife caused by nationalism.

Lets put the athletes and individual performances first.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Irish wasteland wrote:

You missed the two Americans that ran for other countries in this past Olympics.I assume with dual passports they continue to compete for US prize monies as well.

It doesn't work like that. There's a process for changing your national affiliation and you can only represent one nation at a time.

Are you sure? Alexi Pappas recently ran in a USATF road race championship and collected money as a US citizen. Is she immune or are there just assumed rules or unenforced real rules or she is well liked and we turn a blind eye?

Irish wasteland wrote:

Jeff Wigand wrote:

It doesn't work like that. There's a process for changing your national affiliation and you can only represent one nation at a time.

Are you sure? Alexi Pappas recently ran in a USATF road race championship and collected money as a US citizen. Is she immune or are there just assumed rules or unenforced real rules or she is well liked and we turn a blind eye?

I'm sure.

Pappas hasn't run in a USATF Championship this year.

You sir are an idiot! Xenophobia!? The Turkish Kenyans are not uprooting themselves or immigrating in search of a better life, they are still living in Kenya, have never laid a foot on Turkish soil or intend to at anytime, they only run for Turkey because they were paid to, they have no connection.

Mo Farah is a British Citizen through his father who was born in the UK and Mo moved to the UK when he was 8. These Kenyans have no connection to Turkey other than the envelope with a Turkish stamp coming to their home in Iten with money in it. Get your facts straight before you go around accusing others of wrongdoing.

jCo wrote:

Hadn't thought of that olyrun... I like it.

Open World Championships up to everyone, like Cycling.

I like that, too.

jCo wrote:

And Jakob Ingrebritsen didn't have any problem with the foreign implants.

Train harder and smarter.

Or, dope and pay the IAAF to never test positive.

When did she complete for Australia? She married an Aussie& so unlike those Kenyan runners could legitimately have run for Australia but I can fund nothing on her competing for Australia.

Either way it's different as she married into it rather than taking a bung to run somewhere else.

We only import runners who have British parents or grandparent. Most of you are essentially British so we could claim most of your victories as well!

I would ban them as well unless they've been here long enough to get rid of the obnoxious American accent. You just can't enjoy a victory when it so patently belongs to another country.

It's stupid and transparent what Sonia O'Sullivan and others want: a handicap. If natural born Europeans want to compete against the world's best, then put your nose down, work hard and catch up. They are not going to slow down for you, nor should they.

Writing off the accomplishments of the athletes who won here to their ethnicity is a cop out. These people have stories too. Regardless of how they came to Turkey, you cannot assume that they do not represent their current country with pride.

So too bad, cry me a river. They are the fastest in the race, simple as that.