The problem with Ryun as the GOAT is that his career was like 3 years long. Centro takes it handily IMO.
The problem with Ryun as the GOAT is that his career was like 3 years long. Centro takes it handily IMO.
notrump wrote:
He needs the American record or another Olympic medal, otherwise he's ranked with Steve Scott or Marty Liquori. While his 1500 win has a certain perverse tactical brilliance (Salazar has been trying to win this way for years, and finally succeeded), his competition certainly should be faulted for playing right into his hands. The race was slower than the winning time in 1948, and for that reason the medal loses some of its luster.
Liquori was twice ranked #1 in the world in the mile.
colorunner1234 wrote:
Ryun ran 1:44, 3:33, and 3:51 (twice) in crappy shoes on dirt tracks half a century ago, when training methods and diet were more primitive than they are today. All were world records. He did it without rabbits and without performance-enhancing drugs. (Epogen wouldn't come into existence for another 20 years.) Ryun was the #1 ranked 1500 meter runner in the world in 1966 and 1967 and the #1 800 meter runner in the world in 1966. He was Track & Field News' Athlete of the Year (top ranked athlete in all of track and field) in both 1966 and 1967.
How many WRs does Centrowitz have? Zero What is his best mile time? What is his best 800 meter time? How many times has he ranked #1 in the world in the 1500 meters? How many times has he won Track & Field News' Athlete of the Year award?
Jim Ryun at his best was by far the greatest middle distance runner on the planet.
Matt Centrowitz at his best would be unable to win most Diamond League meets.
There is simply no comparison.
Ryun, Lagat, and Centro are all reasonable picks, but it's time to stop treating 3:33 in tough conditions as other-worldly. There were six or eight guys in the Rio field who could run 3:33 unrabbited on dirt. Centro dominated them with a perfect race and now has a gold medal. No other modern American Miler has that.
a walk in the clouds wrote:
arandomwalk wrote:I think a combination of championship wins as well as times are needed. With the olympic gold, WC bronze, and pretty consistent wins at USAs, there's a good argument for him being one of the best championship american milers.
However, and I know there has been a lot of discussion with this, the olympic final was such a bizarre race that it is difficult for me to say that Centro's gold is more impressive than, say, Lagat's silver in Athens. I think the fact that centro will likely get his ass kicked in any upcoming diamond league meets he enters supports this.
To me, what he'd have to do is win at least one more championship medal as well as break or come close to breaking the american record in the mile, 1500 or both in order to cement him as the best american miler ever.
Yo. Here's why The Olympic Gold Trumps All.
You gotta win it one the day. Once every 4 years. Taken on all comers and defeat whatever they throw at you, and whatever they bring.
An Olympic Gold is forever.
This is why Coe said to him as he gave him his gold medal "Welcome to the Club."
It's legendary.
EOS.
Centro didn't win the 1500m (aka mile) at the Olympics. He won an 800m run by milers after a 700m warmup jog
Centro has never gone into a championship race as the favorite to win. He had a chance to win, for sure, but any such win would have involved luck, tactical, or errors made by other runners. Ryun was the clear favorite when he entered races
Star wrote:
In the least he'll need the AR in the 1500 and the mile.
He'll probably do that.
A world record would go long way because Ryun held world records.
That is not likely. But the Olympic Gold compensates for lacking a WR.
He needs to have a #1 world ranking on the year at least once.
And that would mean a world leading time.
Basically he needs to run fast and put up a number of international wins over a season or two.
Centro will win finish with #1 ranking this season buddy.
Is he undefeated this year including World Indoors & Olympics?
Times don't matter as much as wins.
He will be World # 1 because when they actually raced -- he won and wins.
Losing and then going off and running a faster time in a race Centro isn't in doesn't compensate for losing.
Seyta wrote:
smile wrote:Hilarious. YOU are delusional.
Centro doesn't have the American mile record. He doesn't have the American 1500m record. And he doesn't have any world #1 rankings.
You CANNOT be the greatest miler / 1500 meter runner in American history without, at the very least, setting American records in those events. Nor can you do so when your highest world ranking is 5. His world rankings by the way are 8 (2011), 5 (2012), 8 (2013), and 10 (2015),
Jim set two long standing world records and was ranked #1 in the world on two occasions. His world rankings were 4 (1965), 1 (1966), 1 (1967), 2 (1968), 7 (1969), 6 (1971), and 9 (1972).
Jim was four times ranked better than Centro's best ever ranking. Jim broke the American 1500m record 3 times. He broke the American mile record four times. He broke the world 1500m record once. And he broke the world mile record twice.
Top 4 greatest American milers of all time:
1. Jim Ryun
2. Glenn Cunningham (4th & 2nd at Olympics, mile world record)
3. Steve Scott (WC silver, world ranked 9 (1977), 7 (1978), 3 (1979), 4 (1980), 4 (1981), 2 (1982), 2 (1983), 8 (1984), 7 (1985), 3 (1986), 6 (1988), long standing American mile record, 2nd fastest mile ever)
4. Bernard Lagat (WC gold & bronze, world ranked 2 (2005), 3 (2006), 2 (2007), 7 (2009), long (still) standing American 1500m record)
At the moment, Centro is no higher than #5. If he breaks the American mile and 1500m records and receives a world ranking of 2, he will be #3 on the above list.
Jim Ryun ran and set world records when his competition (and running as a whole) was garbage. Guys on Letsrun complain all the time about how Farah only looks good because no one decent is running in the 5K/10K. Rewind 50 years into Ryun's era, and you have a pitiful depth of competition with a bunch of guys doing their best to train while working full-time jobs.
Seriously. I don't understand what's wrong with some of you people. Are you somehow NOT aware that Ryun's era was pitifully weak thanks to the fact that very few promising athletes could actually maintain an amateur athletic career? Ryun being ranked #1 in world and setting a world record in the 1960s is effectively the same as being the world's greatest track cyclist or triathlete today.
I'm right.
You're wrong.
Suck it :)
webby wrote:
[quote]colorunner1234 wrote:
Ryun ran 1:44, 3:33, and 3:51 (twice) in crappy shoes on dirt tracks half a century ago, when training methods and diet were more primitive than they are today. All were world records. He did it without rabbits and without performance-enhancing drugs. (Epogen wouldn't come into existence for another 20 years.) Ryun was the #1 ranked 1500 meter runner in the world in 1966 and 1967 and the #1 800 meter runner in the world in 1966. He was Track & Field News' Athlete of the Year (top ranked athlete in all of track and field) in both 1966 and 1967.
How many WRs does Centrowitz have? Zero What is his best mile time? What is his best 800 meter time? How many times has he ranked #1 in the world in the 1500 meters? How many times has he won Track & Field News' Athlete of the Year award?
Jim Ryun at his best was by far the greatest middle distance runner on the planet.
Matt Centrowitz at his best would be unable to win most Diamond League meets.
There is simply no comparison.
it's time to stop treating 3:33 in tough conditions as other-worldly. There were six or eight guys in the Rio field who could run 3:33 unrabbited on dirt./quote]
NOPe.
anbessa or oshi? wrote:
No one likes it when this argument is made, but Lagat's 2004 silver in the 1500m and the 3:27.40 he ran that year were both done when he was an American (not Kenyan) citizen.
Wrong. He was a Kenyan citizen too. And he chose to represent them, hence why those performances don't count as American performances and why that time wasn't ratified as an American record.
Hey now wrote:
Star wrote:In the least he'll need the AR in the 1500 and the mile.
He'll probably do that.
A world record would go long way because Ryun held world records.
That is not likely. But the Olympic Gold compensates for lacking a WR.
He needs to have a #1 world ranking on the year at least once.
And that would mean a world leading time.
Basically he needs to run fast and put up a number of international wins over a season or two.
Centro will win finish with #1 ranking this season buddy.
Seb Coe wasn't ranked #1 in either of the years he won Olympic gold in the 1500.
He might already be no. 1.
Who else has an Olympic gold (in the last hundred years)?
To me he is the goat already. This gold was no fluke a la manzano in 2012. He won the gold and was the best in an all time great field.
That said o understand the arguments against centro. To me an ar in the 1500 or mile and the argument is over
He needs to win at least one non-slow race against international competition. I don't think he's ever even won a single one. He's the best in the US right now so he cleans up in US-only competition, and he's a great kicker and tactician which is how he's gotten medals in WC and OG, but when the best come together to see who is the toughest (which is exactly the opposite of what that OG finals race was) Centro is always back in the pack.
I'll say he is the best championship 1500 racer the US has ever had (he cemented that legacy with his Gold), but that doesn't mean he is the best 1500/miler the US has ever had. So far he has shown that he excels at a particular type of race, WC and OG races just happen to often be those types of races.
Bottom line, he needs at least either the 1500 or Mile American record and he needs to start competing for the win in top flight Diamond League races. Any time Ryun entered a race he was a favorite, any time Lagat entered a race even as he was older when he was running for America he was a favorite, any time Webb entered a race he was a favorite. I don't think anyone would ever consider Centro a favorite against top international competition outside of tactical championship races.
Centro does have time on his side. The two most talented US milers ever (not including Lagat switching over from Kenya after his prime) - Ryun and Webb - both basically only had 3 healthy years after high school. Ryun when he was 19-21 years old, Webb in 04, 05, and 07. Centro has already surpassed the championship record of any other US miler, but he has yet to once show the world beater ability that guys like Webb, Ryun, Lagat, etc brought to every race they ran. I'm not saying he needs to beat Kiprop in a 3:27 race, but he does need an AR and he's gotta win some Diamond League meets and get to the point where he is actually considered a threat in fast races like all the other best US milers in history.
webby wrote:
Centro dominated them with a perfect race and now has a gold medal. No other modern American Miler has that.
What Centro has is a resume that features 8th, 10th and 11th place finishes, two while losing ground to others, in three fast 1500 races during 2015. In real races Centro can't hang with the big dogs.
bigtool05 wrote:
The problem with Ryun as the GOAT is that his career was like 3 years long. Centro takes it handily IMO.
The problem with your opinion about Ryun is that you must be "like" 3 year old. As others have pointed out, Jim MF Ryun was ranked in the T&FN top ten in the world from 1965 through 1972. That's a span of 8 seasons, for the arithmetic-challenged, but he was not world ranked in 1970, so I agree to call it a very short career of only 7 seasons as one of the world's top ten.
In case all those words above are too complicated for you, tool, the message is: Ryun's career was much longer than 3 years.
Star wrote:
He needs to have a #1 world ranking on the year at least once.
And that would mean a world leading time.
I am fairly certain that Centro currently has the world lead in the mile from millrose. So there's one you can check of the list
captainwildcat wrote:
notrump wrote:The race was slower than the winning time in 1948, and for that reason the medal loses some of its luster.
For the rest of his life when he is introduced as Olympic Gold medalist or Olympic champion no one will ask what his time was. He ran a tactically perfect race and still had to close in 50.0, which is not slow even in a slow race.
I tend to agree that he needs an AR in either the 1500m or Mile to be considered the american GOAT, but I don't think we can hold against him his WINNING time in the Olympics. If there had been a big fall that took out half the field or if all the big names had been eliminated in the rounds then maybe it loses some luster, but as it is he won in a fair, but tactical chapionship race against the best in the world
The last 400m was 50.62…and he had the lead for 1500m out of 1500m in that race.
He has done a recent workout of 8 x 400m in 51 seconds, with the last one in 49.7. He was also training in Flagstaff earlier this year…with Mo Farah.
In my opinion…Matt Centrowitz is in really, really good shape.
https://www.facebook.com/hypo2/photos/a.181731141864880.32731.154386924599302/1056106101094042/?type=3&theater(I am also biased. I raced against his father in high school...and his father destroyed me in every race).
I think the Olympic Champion Matt Centrowitz (USA) is ready to run really fast…right now.
I do not think you will have to wait very long to find out.
GO CENTRO!!!
Centro will always be Olympic CHAMPION. Ryun couldn't do it, so Centro is better. Ryun was good, but isn't GOAT American miler. Top 3 for sure, but not the best.
Majority Decision wrote:
a walk in the clouds wrote:Yo. Here's why The Olympic Gold Trumps All.
You gotta win it one the day. Once every 4 years. Taken on all comers and defeat whatever they throw at you, and whatever they bring.
An Olympic Gold is forever.
This is why Coe said to him as he gave him his gold medal "Welcome to the Club."
It's legendary.
EOS.
Centro didn't win the 1500m (aka mile) at the Olympics. He won an 800m run by milers after a 700m warmup jog
Centro has never gone into a championship race as the favorite to win. He had a chance to win, for sure, but any such win would have involved luck, tactical, or errors made by other runners. Ryun was the clear favorite when he entered races
Majority Decision wrote:
Centro has never gone into a championship race as the favorite to win. He had a chance to win, for sure, but any such win would have involved luck, tactical, or errors made by other runners. Ryun was the clear favorite when he entered races
So Centro exceeded expectations and Ryun failed to live up to expectations in the Olympics?
If the World Championships had existed in Ryun's era he would likely have won at least one if not more than one world championship, but that's also like saying if he had faster tracks and better shoes he would've run 3:47 or 3:28. It might be possible, but is just speculation we can only compare what they have actually done.
Exactly. Salazar has found a way to exploit tactical championship racing by working on a finishing in low 50's for Centro, Mo and Rupp. Breaking american records should be a goal besides accumulating medals for jogging and outsprinting.
Is Centro a better miler than Steve Ovett?