RE Semenya: Is LetsRun.com "continuing a dated, bigoted conversation about gender in sports."

Your stance is extremely reasonable, Rojo.

It sucks for Semenya, but you're right, competing in the Olympics as a woman is not a universal human right. There's a reasonable range for female testosterone, just as with hematocrit and other performance-related measures, and an athlete outside of that range whether due to natural traits or manipulation by doping should not be in the same category. You can give all Semenya's competitors an unfair disadvantage, or you can move Semenya to the men's category where only 1 person will have a disadvantage.

I'm only concerned that she may decide to place a quote in 50 pt font - "I'm proud to be considered a bigot".

Rojo as an actual trans person and a long time reader of the site (of both the good and bad) I agree with you that Semenya should not be competing with the women with her elevated testosterone. I also appreciate how you continue to acknowledge HER as the WOMAN she is. To say anything else is not only disrespectful, its downright harmful as its just creating more of a transphobic air for people to use against trans people.

Caster is a woman. an intersex woman, but a woman nonetheless. But she should not be competing against other women who aren't intersex. By her levels being lowered down to appropriate levels to compete with women you actually see just how much of a benefit she had with her natural levels. Just look at monaco this year versus how she had been competing up until this year.

The woman you spoke with really doesn't understand what she is talking about because not only does she not understand the sport even in the slightest, she doesnt understand what it means to be trans either. She can voice her opinions and defenses of her view, but she isn't nor should she be a spokesperson for a community she has never been a part of other than as an ally (which is fine! you can be supportive and act as an ally and fight for the rights of the people you're allied with, but when you act as a spokesperson for a group of people you are clearly not, youre taking the facetime away from them and pushing them back into the background theyve been trying to get out of)

Rojo, I pretty much agree with everything you wrote.

I think the strongest argument for the other side goes something like this:

1. There are too few XY women to be an existential threat to women's athletics.

2. Although women's sport has to be defined by biological sex, we don't have a perfect definition of biological sex, and we don't have 100% certainty regarding what aspects of sex actually confer advantages and to what degree.

3. Therefore, before causing possible social collateral damage (this seems to be what the reporter is concerned about), we should err on the side of overinclusiveness in women's athletics.

4. And finally, as you note, competing in the Olympics is not a human right. Accordingly, the people who miss out on opportunities to medal are not having their rights violated. And although sport itself is a human right, the effect of XY women on sport below the elite level is likely to be even more minimal.

On the other hand, I'm of the opinion that the integrity of our sport is very fragile, and that we should never knowingly make a decision that is contrary to the ethos of the sport simply because it serves some other worthy goal. But a lot of people won't agree with that, because a lot of people truly don't understand what athletics is about.

If you take the wheels off a Ford F150 is it then a Ford Focus?

Women's rights in athletics wrote:

rojo wrote:

[quote]I don't think Caster is a man. Most definitely not. Those posts anger me. If you are born without a penis, to be called a man would be tough.

Rojo, don't you understand how offensive you are being to women by referring to him as a woman? You know he's an XY male. Because he's a male he should be referred to as a male, because 1) that's what he is biologically, and 2) he is not a female. By calling him her and see, you are being offensive to all women, specifically to women who compete in athletics, and are threatening the existence of women's athletics.

There is more that biologically separates men and women than a vagina and a penis. The one and only thing that apparently makes Caster a woman is a vagina/lack of a penis? Why ignore the y chromosome, the testosterone levels, the internal testes, the obvious superior muscular development, etc., all not found in an xx female, in favor of the one organ that, but for a developmental mishap during gestation, wouldn't be there in the first place (not to mention the lack of a uterus, ovaries, etc.)? Women aren't women just because they don't have a penis.

Rojo, I think your point was will articulated and I agree with your statements 100%. However, the issue I do have is not with you, but the LRC. Caster didn't choose the way she was born, immature personal attacks against her are unnecessary. She could perhaps be a very nice person and is competing in the only way she knows how and with the encouragement and full support of the SAAA. Also, whether we like it or not, she is operating with in the rules, therefore the beef should be with the IOC, IAAF or SAAA, not Caster.

A bigot is one who is intolerant of others with an different opinion from their own opinion. She is the bigot. She is blinded by her bigotry and is projecting this onto you and extending that into the hyperbole of your responsibility for hate crimes in Texas. She is completely irrational. You and LR is an easy target for her to spread her bigotry.

Also, because she sees the issue as one about gender, she is confused. It is not about Semenya's gender identity. It is about her biological sex and her biochemical advantage over others who have a different sex than Semenya.

Again, you are not the bigot here. She is. Who will she influence? Only those who are already bigoted and blinded by their bias on this issue. It's not really something to be concerned about. She comes off as a crackpot.

No I

1 2 3 green wrote:

oldermilen wrote:

Be ready for a picture of you with the following quote in large, bold print:

"I'm proud to be considered a bigot."

lol. That sentence jumped out at me too. Definitely not a very carefully worded email to someone you know is looking for any way to twist what you say to fit their story.

No, I put that line in there on purpose. Sine tone is sometimes missed on email, perhaps I should have put the word "bigot" in quotes. But the only point is I don't view myself as a bigot. I'm trying to save an entire category of sports.

Here's how it should read.

If believing that humans (whether intersex or transgender) that respond to testosterone shouldn't be allowed to compete in Olympic women's track and field with elevated testosterone levels is considered bigoted, then I'm proud to be considered a "bigot". Such "bigoted views" are necessary to protect the future viability of women's sports.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Regarding this issue wrote:

Yes I do.

I don't. I mean, there are reasonable and responsible posts on both sides on there, but there is also a lot of bigoted ugly stuff, like most of the Letsrun message boards.

Not sure if they are going to slam the editorial stance on Letsrun or the forum they provide for others?

Editorial stance. She can't stand it when I link to Ross Tucker or quote him as QOD or quote him in our articles.

Bjfdghjg wrote:

She sounds like one of those Rob Young defenders. No amount of logic or reasonable arguments would shake her from what she feels is the "correctness" of her views.

She's blinded by her bigoted bias. She is incapable of rational thought about this issue as a result.

Blah Blah. wrote:

Liberals blah blah

Rojo,

1. Be careful what you say. You will be misquoted by the media. You're already off to a rocky start.

2. Publicity, even bad publicity, can be a good thing. New visitors to the site will come here to see what this is all about.

3. Uninformed readers lack an understanding of the issues here. Admittedly, the message is confused by the trolls, but the majority here have nothing against transgenders and intersex.

4. The discussion is whether an intersex individual with a testosterone level closer to males than females should be allowed to compete against XX women without reducing her T levels to that of other female athletes.

5. You have a percent of posters here who only want to troll. You need to clamp down hard on them in these Semenya threads. Otherwise, that one in one hundred post will be the one quoted by the media. ...a word to the wise...

Another gal with 20/20 vision wrote:

There is more that biologically separates men and women than a vagina and a penis. The one and only thing that apparently makes Caster a woman is a vagina/lack of a penis? Why ignore the y chromosome, the testosterone levels, the internal testes, the obvious superior muscular development, etc., all not found in an xx female, in favor of the one organ that, but for a developmental mishap during gestation, wouldn't be there in the first place (not to mention the lack of a uterus, ovaries, etc.)? Women aren't women just because they don't have a penis.

Yes, well said. Thank you

rojo wrote:

No I

1 2 3 green wrote:

[quote]oldermilen wrote:

Be ready for a picture of you with the following quote in large, bold print:

"I'm proud to be considered a bigot."

Sine tone is sometimes missed on email

What is "sine tone"? I googled it but only came up with something to do with music. Just curious.

She's an absolute lunatic

TrackCoach wrote:

Also, whether we like it or not, she is operating with in the rules, therefore the beef should be with the IOC, IAAF or SAAA, not Caster.

The beef should be with the governing bodies because they've made an ill-advised decision.

It should also be with Semenya. She knows she has an unfair biochemical advantage. She is taking advantage of a poor ruling. She should decide to not exploit it and unfairly make the women she beats pay for it.

Consider me to be a birther in this discussion. Your gender, as far as athletics is concerned, should be determined by what is on your birth certificate, as that has been the standard from the beginning of record keeping. You are either born with a man handle or without. There are likely a lot of olympians of the past who would likely fall in this gray area, as androgeny is not some new thing. Caster should be allowed to compete.

TrackCoach wrote:

Rojo, I think your point was will articulated and I agree with your statements 100%. However, the issue I do have is not with you, but the LRC. Caster didn't choose the way she was born, immature personal attacks against her are unnecessary. She could perhaps be a very nice person and is competing in the only way she knows how and with the encouragement and full support of the SAAA. Also, whether we like it or not, she is operating with in the rules, therefore the beef should be with the IOC, IAAF or SAAA, not Caster.

I agree with the above. I think your response was good except for perhaps that one "I am proud to be called a bigot" line. LOL ;)

I pretty much completely agree with Ross Tucker and I was happy that you quoted his post for QotD. Throughout the thread, he did a great job of explaining the nuances of the situation while still successfully arguing that the current situation is unsustainable and potentially headed toward disaster.

Some of the hateful comments on the board have disturbed me. I am far from the most PC person out there, and yet I am alarmed by how the voices of reason (many of which still don't believe Semenya should be competing against women) are drowned out by the childish yells of "HE IS A MAN PERIOD STOP CALLING HER A WOMAN." Should those posts be deleted? I don't know. Sometimes these things need to be discussed, including the negative side, in order for growth to be possible. Sometimes I have wondered why most posts weren't deleted, but thankfully there is at least a bit of balance from more compassionate people.

Decent respect and consideration for our fellow human beings is critical. Please, please continue to be respectful and kind towards Semenya personally, and I would suggest taking a strong stance on your view of respect towards Semenya herself as well as compassion for her situation. If you don't do that, then arguing against her competing with women will lose its authority. But if you remain kind and respectful and appropriately sensitive toward Semenya, then I believe you can continue to state much more effectively what I believe to be true, which is that women's sport must be protected.

This is a good fight.

Feminazi vs Silver Spoon Bigot